Idyll

[Jonathan Carr]

Veteran List-ers may groan over the following which has surely been
thrashed out before, but some of you as well as newbies might feel
like weighing in all the same.

Perhaps encouraged by Cosima's birthday, I have been dipping into
around 60 recordings of the "Siegfried Idyll." Which performance(s)do
you prefer and why? Full(ish) orchestra, chamber version – or even
piano? Any thoughts on changing interpretation over the last eight
decades or so (i.e. since the recordings by Siegfried Wagner and
Muck).

It's amazing what this piece yields up at every new hearing. Was this
the quasi-symphonic door to Wagner's future – a door he did not live
to pass through??

Thanks in advance for any comments.

Cheers.

Jonathan Carr

[Derrick Everett]

At the bottom of my list would be the recording conducted by Glenn
Gould. It is like listening to paint drying.

--
Derrick Everett

[Derrick Everett]

At the bottom of my list would be the recording conducted by Glenn
Gould. It's like listening to paint drying.

--
Derrick Everett

[michael]

Post by Derrick Everett
At the bottom of my list would be the recording conducted by Glenn
Gould. It's like listening to paint drying.
--
Derrick Everett

I think the sound of paint drying would be more like that John Cage
piece. You know, the one he "wrote" where all you "hear" is the ambient
noise.

:-)


Seriously, I never heard Gould's take. I guess it is a piano
transcription, ala Liszt's Beethoven material?


michael

[Bert Coules]

I might well have imagined this, but at the back of my mind is a dim and
distant memory of once hearing the Siegfried Idyll played on a classical
guitar. Has anyone ever come across such a thing?

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

[Derrick Everett]

Seriously, I never heard Gould's take. I guess it is a piano

transcription, ala Liszt's Beethoven material?

Actually, no. Among Gould's many delusions, he believed that he was an
orchestral conductor.

On a more positive note, I believe that his recording uses exactly the
band specified by Wagner, that is, no more players that could be
accomodated on the stairs at Triebschen. It is therefore more
"authentic" than any recording of the Idyll made by a large orchestra.
--
Derrick Everett

[Bert Coules]

Derrick,

Post by Derrick Everett
On a more positive note, I believe that his recording uses exactly the
band specified by Wagner, that is, no more players that could be
accommodated on the stairs at Triebschen.

Does the house still exist? I wonder what the acoustic's like? Now
there's an idea for a truly authentic period recording...

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

[Herman van der Woude]

In news:41e6596f$0$70396$***@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net, schreef
Bert Coules <***@bertcoules.co.uk>:
| Derrick,
|
|| On a more positive note, I believe that his recording uses exactly
|| the band specified by Wagner, that is, no more players that could be
|| accommodated on the stairs at Triebschen.
|
| Does the house still exist?

Yes, the house still exists, it is a museum now. If you can read German,
please follow the link

http://www.kulturluzern.ch/wagner-museum/

Cheers,

[Bert Coules]

Herman,

Post by Herman van der Woude
Yes, the house still exists, it is a museum now. If you can read German,
please follow the link
http://www.kulturluzern.ch/wagner-museum/

Thanks very much, that's fascinating. Pity there isn't a photograph of the
famous staircase, though.

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

[g***@yahoo.com]

Actually there is. It was taken by a member of the Boston Symphony who
visited Tribschen a few years ago. It can be viewed at

http://www.yeodoug.com/articles/wagner_museum/wagnermuseum.html

Anyone who has not visited Tribschen but has a chance to do so, please
take it. It is - still - the loveliest spot, really worthy of the
"Idyll" and you can't do much better than that! Then there is all the
history - not least Toscanini conducting the "Idyll" on the lawn before
the villa with his Lucerne Festival Orchestra just before the second
world war. Friedelind Wagner, who lived for many months in the villa
before fleeing from the Nazis to the U.S., was in the audience.
Cheers

Jonathan Carr

[a***@bezeqint.net]

Post by g***@yahoo.com
Anyone who has not visited Tribschen but has a chance to do so, please
take it. It is - still - the loveliest spot, really worthy of the
"Idyll" and you can't do much better than that! > Jonathan Carr

I have been there two years ago and, if remember correctly, even
climbed it. There is a page from the score to Tristan with notes made
by Toscanini hanging over the stairway.
A beautiful spot on the south shore of the lake. It is now a museum and
the garden around it is a public park (where my wife, who does not
share my love to Wagners' music, aited for me).

[Ralph]

Post by Bert Coules
Derrick,

Post by Derrick Everett
On a more positive note, I believe that his recording uses exactly the
band specified by Wagner, that is, no more players that could be
accommodated on the stairs at Triebschen.

Does the house still exist? I wonder what the acoustic's like? Now
there's an idea for a truly authentic period recording...

For authenticity, the audience should yell bravo after the flower scene in
Parsifal, as Wagner himself did. For which the other members of the audience
hissed him!

Ralph

[Mike Scott Rohan]

Post by Bert Coules
Derrick,

Post by Derrick Everett
On a more positive note, I believe that his recording uses exactly the
band specified by Wagner, that is, no more players that could be
accommodated on the stairs at Triebschen.

Does the house still exist? I wonder what the acoustic's like? Now
there's an idea for a truly authentic period recording...
Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

Not only does it exist, but many years ago the BBC made one of its best
music films there, "The Siegfried Idyll" with Alan Badel as Wagner and
Gemma Jones as Cosima, recreating the original performance. If you have
more pull with BBC archives than I do -- my contact has fled to the
National Film and TV Archive -- you could suggest they look it out for
BBC4, maybe; they pulled out some of those marvellous M.R.James
adaptations from the same era. Although they've probably wiped it...

Cheers,

Mike

[Bert Coules]

Mike, I knew about The Siegfried Idyll, of course, but I didn't realise it
was filmed at Triebschen. I'd love to see it again, but sadly my influence
at BBC Film and TV Archives is precisely nil.

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

[j***@yahoo.com]

I am embarassed to tell you that I don't know what exactly "Siegfried
Idyll's" is. Please tell me so I cant get it. Thank you.

[Derrick Everett]

Post by j***@yahoo.com
I am embarassed to tell you that I don't know what exactly "Siegfried

Idyll's" is. Please tell me so I cant get it. Thank you.

It's in the FAQ, section II-E, under "Orchestral works".
--
Derrick Everett

[Dogbert Dilbert]

Post by Jonathan Carr
Veteran List-ers may groan over the following which has surely been
thrashed out before, but some of you as well as newbies might feel
like weighing in all the same.
Perhaps encouraged by Cosima's birthday, I have been dipping into
around 60 recordings of the "Siegfried Idyll." Which performance(s)do
you prefer and why? Full(ish) orchestra, chamber version – or even
piano? Any thoughts on changing interpretation over the last eight
decades or so (i.e. since the recordings by Siegfried Wagner and
Muck).
It's amazing what this piece yields up at every new hearing. Was this
the quasi-symphonic door to Wagner's future – a door he did not live
to pass through??
Thanks in advance for any comments.
Cheers.
Jonathan Carr

I'm fond of the smaller-scale versions. Two spring to mind,
Norrington's on EMI and the Academy of St Martin in the Field under
Marriner.

I also have a number of "big-band" Idylls, but these seem often to
miss the mark - I think the scale and relative simplicity of the piece
work against a big-band interpretation. Having said that, I caught the
tail end of a performance on the radio I thought very fine indeed, and
it turned out to be by Thielemann with the BPO.

Dogbertd

[Bert Coules]

I haven't played it for a very long while, but I remember rather liking the
small-forces version conducted by Solti as a filler on Decca's album of
Deryck Cooke talking about the motifs in The Ring.

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

[Laon]

Post by Bert Coules
I haven't played it for a very long while, but I remember rather liking the
small-forces version conducted by Solti as a filler on Decca's album of
Deryck Cooke talking about the motifs in The Ring.

Me too. I thought that was a very fine performance, and never
afterwards felt that the souped orchestral version was quite right.
I've got it on vinyl, but I don't know if it's available on CD.

Other than that, I also liked the Boulez version, also for small
forces, that came out on vinyl on the back of _Die Liebesmahl der
Apostel_: Boulez's Lovefeast, on the other hand, wasn't much of a
performance.

For an orchestral recommendation, I'd suggest the Michel Plasson disk
that has the _Idyll_ along with some Wagner rarities: the Faust
Overture, "Der Tag Erscheint", _An Webers Grab_, _Trauersymfonie_ and a
rattling good _Das Liebesmahl der Apostel_. All well played, and the
Liebesmahl is easily the best version of that choral piece that I've
heard. Michel Plasson with the Dresdner Phil, on EMI Classics, and
recommended by me.

Of the stuff I haven't heard, I'd be most interested to hear the
Norrington version, and I'd also be interested to hear Gould's piano
transcription, played by Gould. I've heard that - as Deryck suggests -
the speeds are so damn slow the thing stalls; but I've heard a ouple of
the Gould transcriptions - "Siegfried's Rhine Journey" and something
else - on the radio and thought they were brilliant, so I'd be
interested to see what he made of anything in Wagner. (I'm not as much
of a Gould fan as some, but when he was playing music that suited him
he was extraordinary.)


Cheers!


Laon

[Laon]

Post by Bert Coules
I haven't played it for a very long while, but I remember rather liking the
small-forces version conducted by Solti as a filler on Decca's album of
Deryck Cooke talking about the motifs in The Ring.

Me too. I thought that was a very fine performance, and never
afterwards felt that the souped orchestral version was quite right.
I've got it on vinyl, but I don't know if it's available on CD.

Other than that, I also liked the Boulez version, also for small
forces, that came out on vinyl on the back of _Die Liebesmahl der
Apostel_: Boulez's Lovefeast, on the other hand, wasn't much of a
performance.

For an orchestral recommendation, I'd suggest the Michel Plasson disk
that has the _Idyll_ along with some Wagner rarities: the Faust
Overture, "Der Tag Erscheint", _An Webers Grab_, _Trauersymfonie_ and a
rattling good _Das Liebesmahl der Apostel_. All well played, and the
Liebesmahl is easily the best version of that choral piece that I've
heard. Michel Plasson with the Dresdner Phil, on EMI Classics, and
recommended by me.

Of the stuff I haven't heard, I'd be most interested to hear the
Norrington version, and I'd also be interested to hear Gould's piano
transcription, played by Gould. I've heard that - as Deryck suggests -
the speeds are so damn slow the thing stalls; but I've heard a ouple of
the Gould transcriptions - "Siegfried's Rhine Journey" and something
else - on the radio and thought they were brilliant, so I'd be
interested to see what he made of anything in Wagner. (I'm not as much
of a Gould fan as some, but when he was playing music that suited him
he was extraordinary.)


Cheers!


Laon

[Derrick Everett]

Post by Laon
For an orchestral recommendation, I'd suggest the Michel Plasson disk
that has the _Idyll_ along with some Wagner rarities: the Faust
Overture, "Der Tag Erscheint", _An Webers Grab_, _Trauersymfonie_ and a
rattling good _Das Liebesmahl der Apostel_. All well played, and the
Liebesmahl is easily the best version of that choral piece that I've
heard. Michel Plasson with the Dresdner Phil, on EMI Classics, and
recommended by me.

For anyone who wants to hear a selection of Wagner's orchestral music, the
Michel Plasson and Dresden Phil. disk (EMI 7243 5 56358 22) would be an
excellent choice. Apart from the 'Idyll', the works presented on this disk
are all from the 1840's and so contemporary, of course, with 'Dutchman'
and the first version of 'Tannhäuser'. So not at all juvenile efforts,
even if not in the same class as the 'Idyll'.

Post by Laon
Of the stuff I haven't heard, I'd be most interested to hear the
Norrington version, and I'd also be interested to hear Gould's piano
transcription, played by Gould. I've heard that - as Deryck suggests -
the speeds are so damn slow the thing stalls; but I've heard a ouple of
the Gould transcriptions - "Siegfried's Rhine Journey" and something
else - on the radio and thought they were brilliant, so I'd be
interested to see what he made of anything in Wagner. (I'm not as much
of a Gould fan as some, but when he was playing music that suited him he
was extraordinary.)

The same disk (Sony SK 46279) contains Gould's piano transcription and a
performance of the 'Idyll' conducted by Gould; it was the latter I was
referring to. On the CD box it is described as, "Gould's Conducting Debut
and Final Recording". It is authentic in the sense that it uses only 13
players, all members of the Toronto Symphony.

Another recording that deserves mention is authentic in a different sense,
since it is conducted by Siegfried himself. It was recorded by the London
Symphony Orchestra in April 1927. I have this recording on a CD set
entitled, 'Siegfried conducts Richard Wagner' (Trax Classique TRXCD12).

[Derrick Everett]

Post by Derrick Everett

Post by Laon
For an orchestral recommendation, I'd suggest the Michel Plasson disk
that has the _Idyll_ along with some Wagner rarities: the Faust
Overture, "Der Tag Erscheint", _An Webers Grab_, _Trauersymfonie_ and a
rattling good _Das Liebesmahl der Apostel_. All well played, and the
Liebesmahl is easily the best version of that choral piece that I've
heard. Michel Plasson with the Dresdner Phil, on EMI Classics, and
recommended by me.

For anyone who wants to hear a selection of Wagner's orchestral music, the
Michel Plasson and Dresden Phil. disk (EMI 7243 5 56358 22) would be an
excellent choice.

And choral music, I should add: 'Der Tag Ercheint' is for men's chorus and
wind band; 'An Webers Grabe: Hebt an den Sang' is for men's chorus "a
cappela", while 'Das Liebesmahl' is for men's chorus and an awfully big
orchestra. Several recordings of the latter have been issued on CD;
but the pieces that Wagner wrote for Weber's reburial in Dresden are
rarely performed and, to my knowledge, not available on any other
recording.

[Charles]

For the information of anyone interested, I have spent an hour or so
searching music sellers on the web for this Plasson/Wagner CD. It is
out of print and out of stock at any place I've tried except J&R Music
World in the US, at www.jr.com
It can be accessed by entering 'Wagner: Das Liebesmahl der Apostel /
Plasson' in the search box. Among the others I tried unsuccessfully
were all the national Amazons (the Japanese might have it, but I
couldn't read it), ArkivMusic, HMV, Virgin, EMI itself, Tower, and
quite a few others. I'm glad I finally found it and greatly looking
forward to hearing it. Thank you, Derrick.

Post by Derrick Everett

Post by Derrick Everett

Post by Laon
For an orchestral recommendation, I'd suggest the Michel Plasson disk
that has the _Idyll_ along with some Wagner rarities: the Faust
Overture, "Der Tag Erscheint", _An Webers Grab_, _Trauersymfonie_ and a
rattling good _Das Liebesmahl der Apostel_. All well played, and the
Liebesmahl is easily the best version of that choral piece that I've
heard. Michel Plasson with the Dresdner Phil, on EMI Classics, and
recommended by me.

For anyone who wants to hear a selection of Wagner's orchestral music, the
Michel Plasson and Dresden Phil. disk (EMI 7243 5 56358 22) would be an
excellent choice.

And choral music, I should add: 'Der Tag Ercheint' is for men's chorus and
wind band; 'An Webers Grabe: Hebt an den Sang' is for men's chorus "a
cappela", while 'Das Liebesmahl' is for men's chorus and an awfully big
orchestra. Several recordings of the latter have been issued on CD;
but the pieces that Wagner wrote for Weber's reburial in Dresden are
rarely performed and, to my knowledge, not available on any other
recording.
--
Derrick Everett (deverett at c2i.net)
====== Writing from 59°54'N 10°36'E ======
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htm
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/wagnerfaq.htm

[MAD4OPERA]

For the information of anyone interested, I have spent an hour or so
searching music sellers on the web for this Plasson/Wagner CD. It is out of
print and out of stock at any place I've tried except J&R Music
World in the US, at www.jr.com
It can be accessed by entering 'Wagner: Das Liebesmahl der Apostel /

=================

It is available on Berkshire Record Outlet www.broinc.com I just received my
copy on Thursday ~ about $9.00 plus tax & Shipping

[Charles]

Post by Charles
For the information of anyone interested, I have spent an hour or so
searching music sellers on the web for this Plasson/Wagner CD. It is out of
print and out of stock at any place I've tried except J&R Music
World in the US, at www.jr.com
It can be accessed by entering 'Wagner: Das Liebesmahl der Apostel /
=================
It is available on Berkshire Record Outlet www.broinc.com I just received my
copy on Thursday ~ about $9.00 plus tax & Shipping

I tried Berkshre and got a not found - and still do whatever variant I
try. It would be interesting to know your search criteria, expecially
since I paid 4 dollars more.

[Richard Loeb]

It sold out???? Richard

Post by Charles

Post by Charles
For the information of anyone interested, I have spent an hour or so
searching music sellers on the web for this Plasson/Wagner CD. It is

out of

Post by Charles
print and out of stock at any place I've tried except J&R Music
World in the US, at www.jr.com
It can be accessed by entering 'Wagner: Das Liebesmahl der Apostel /
=================
It is available on Berkshire Record Outlet www.broinc.com I just

received my

Post by Charles
copy on Thursday ~ about $9.00 plus tax & Shipping

I tried Berkshre and got a not found - and still do whatever variant I
try. It would be interesting to know your search criteria, expecially
since I paid 4 dollars more.

[MAD4OPERA]

Well, I just now searched and I cannot find it on Berkshire. I ordered back in
December and I told one friend about it and he ordered too.

I got mine just days ago and I haven't confirmed if he got his yet.

It could be that we got the last 2, I don't know.

I was looking specifically for Liebesmahl, I did find a 2 versions of
Liebesmahl on Amazon.com.uk - but they were pricey as I recall.

Cheers,
Terri

[Richard Loeb]

It should have come up if you put in Wagner Plasson - it's probably sold out
Richard

Post by MAD4OPERA
Well, I just now searched and I cannot find it on Berkshire. I ordered back in
December and I told one friend about it and he ordered too.
I got mine just days ago and I haven't confirmed if he got his yet.
It could be that we got the last 2, I don't know.
I was looking specifically for Liebesmahl, I did find a 2 versions of
Liebesmahl on Amazon.com.uk - but they were pricey as I recall.
Cheers,
Terri

[Charles]

J&R now informs me (Jan. 31) that they cannot ger hold of a copy of
this and they consider it unavailable. That was the only place that
offered it of many I tried.

Perhaps, since it is out of print, Derrick might possibly be persuaded
to repr**uce it and....?

Charles

[g***@yahoo.com]

Thanks for hints about performances I do not yet know and will look out
for, including Plasson's. Frankly I find it impossible to say whether
I prefer the chamber or (fairly) full orchestral version. It is more a
matter of which I most recently heard. I do know, though, that I am
still looking for the "perfect" performance - an absurd quest, of
course, but one I find hard to resist. No one conductor seems to
capture every element. Thielemann's strings are superb, Muck's
(Berlin) birdsong the best ever (IMHO), Boulez's New York horn
well-nigh incomparable (who is that guy?) etc etc. Some famous names
for me simply do not register here, including Furtwaengler and his
dearly beloved Karajan. Solti, on the other hand, is so relaxed and
warm you would not believe it was..well..Solti. Perhaps he just went
off and left the Vienna players to do their own thing.

One thing does strike me, happily ploughing through all these
interpretations. On the whole the early ones - i.e. those recorded in
the 20s and 30s - are the quickest e.g. Siegfried (16.14mins), Blech
(17.13), Muck (17.34), Walter- Vienna (16.44), Toscanini-New York
(16.12), Weingartner (15.48) etc. Compare the post-war maestros, for
instance Karajan (19.41), Maazel (21.03), Thielemann (19.11),
Celibidache (23.38), Klemperer (18.01) not to mention Gould-chamber
group (24.28) or Gould -piano (23.31).

There are exceptions of course e.g. Paray in Detroit racing across the
finishing line in 15.20, a speed no doubt appropriate to the venue. Its
amazing what this piece can take and still sound superb, or at least
interesting. But I wonder if these comparisons don't help us make a
broader point about Wagnerian interpretation in general. Have
conductors really got slower over the years and if so, why? I know the
argument that in the old days conductors had to hurry to get their
pieces on to one or two sides of a 78 shellac disc. Maybe that's part
of the explanation but I can't believe it accounts for everything.
Cheers.

Jonathan Carr


--

[gggg gggg]

Post by g***@yahoo.com
Thanks for hints about performances I do not yet know and will look out
for, including Plasson's. Frankly I find it impossible to say whether
I prefer the chamber or (fairly) full orchestral version. It is more a
matter of which I most recently heard. I do know, though, that I am
still looking for the "perfect" performance - an absurd quest, of
course, but one I find hard to resist. No one conductor seems to
capture every element. Thielemann's strings are superb, Muck's
(Berlin) birdsong the best ever (IMHO), Boulez's New York horn
well-nigh incomparable (who is that guy?) etc etc. Some famous names
for me simply do not register here, including Furtwaengler and his
dearly beloved Karajan. Solti, on the other hand, is so relaxed and
warm you would not believe it was..well..Solti. Perhaps he just went
off and left the Vienna players to do their own thing.
One thing does strike me, happily ploughing through all these
interpretations. On the whole the early ones - i.e. those recorded in
the 20s and 30s - are the quickest e.g. Siegfried (16.14mins), Blech
(17.13), Muck (17.34), Walter- Vienna (16.44), Toscanini-New York
(16.12), Weingartner (15.48) etc. Compare the post-war maestros, for
instance Karajan (19.41), Maazel (21.03), Thielemann (19.11),
Celibidache (23.38)...

Concerning Celibidache, the following 2023 Youtube upload may be of interest:

"RICHARD WAGNER - Präludien & Ouvertures - Filarmônica de Munique - Sergiu Celibidache"