Discussion:
Flying Dutchman/ Fliegende Hollander
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Dogbert Dilbert
2006-07-31 10:59:38 UTC
Permalink
I was heading out to see The Flying Dutchman (20 years ago...) when my
fiend asked me the devastating question "Does anyone actually enjoy
The Flying Dutchman?" I realised that I was going almost out of a
sense of duty, rather than with any great anticipation of enjoyment. I
have to confess I've never been to see The Dutchman ever since.

I wonder how the others in this group feel about this opera? The
overture is definitely geat and I usually enjoy "Die Frist ist Um",
but the rest is (for me) merely OK in a rumpty-tumpty sort of way. I
only have the Nelsson version on CD, so would anyone suggest a
different set that might improve my enjoyment of Der Fliegende
Hollander?

Regards,

Dogbertd
Richard Loeb
2006-07-31 12:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dogbert Dilbert
I was heading out to see The Flying Dutchman (20 years ago...) when my
fiend asked me the devastating question "Does anyone actually enjoy
The Flying Dutchman?" I realised that I was going almost out of a
sense of duty, rather than with any great anticipation of enjoyment. I
have to confess I've never been to see The Dutchman ever since.
I wonder how the others in this group feel about this opera? The
overture is definitely geat and I usually enjoy "Die Frist ist Um",
but the rest is (for me) merely OK in a rumpty-tumpty sort of way. I
only have the Nelsson version on CD, so would anyone suggest a
different set that might improve my enjoyment of Der Fliegende
Hollander?
Regards,
Dogbertd
Well it has it's moments thats for sure but the old ways of arias and duets
were really not Wagner's ways and he was only partially successful with them
(he himself made jokes about the score later in his life) - I don't know
if any recording would hide the score's weaknesses ( I have learned to live
with them)but a favorite of mine is the 1959 Bayreuth live with Rysanek and
London, far better than the studio set with them which is not well
conducted, Richard
Mike Scott Rohan
2006-07-31 12:11:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dogbert Dilbert
I was heading out to see The Flying Dutchman (20 years ago...) when my
fiend asked me the devastating question "Does anyone actually enjoy
The Flying Dutchman?" I realised that I was going almost out of a
sense of duty, rather than with any great anticipation of enjoyment. I
have to confess I've never been to see The Dutchman ever since.
I wonder how the others in this group feel about this opera? The
overture is definitely geat and I usually enjoy "Die Frist ist Um",
but the rest is (for me) merely OK in a rumpty-tumpty sort of way. I
only have the Nelsson version on CD, so would anyone suggest a
different set that might improve my enjoyment of Der Fliegende
Hollander?
Regards,
Dogbertd
I enjoy it enormously! Much more than Tannhauser, for example. Okay,
there are less inspired moments, Erik's last-act cavatina for example or
Daland's conventional aria (because it was about time for the bass to
have one, I suspect, although it does point up the contrasting reactions
of the Dutchman and Elsa), but for me it's full of beautiful music.
Okay, the Spinning Chorus and the Sailors scene are not what you'd find
in Gotterdammerung, but "Die Frist", Senta's song, the Elsa/Erik
visionary duet (one of the oddest things Wagner ever wrote) and the
climactic finale are definitely on their way there. And even the
"rum-ti-tum" bits are immensely enjoyable in their vein, which is that
of early Romantic opera, following on Marschner, Lortzing to some
extent, Beethoven in Fidelio and, even more closely linked to Wagner,
Weber, in Freischutz especially. This is Wagner's root ground, it
inspired him and everything he later wrote grew out of it. In some
respects Dutchman is Freischutz set at sea instead of in the Bohemian
forests, and rewritten so the spooky bass-baritone gets the girl.

And it's really pleasant to see Wagner working within a relatively small
and conventional compass, yet blossoming with imagination just as
thoroughly. He was forever being accused in his day of lacking melody,
ie not writing tunes -- but the tunes in Dutchman are terrific value,
growing as they often do out of his intensely visual imagination. The
Spinning Chorus shows you the wheels as surely as the Rheingold prelude
paints a picture of the river. He uses unusual musical effects -- the
echoing voices off the fjord walls, the swirl and roar accompanying the
ghostly sailors, with the pipe shrilling at once like a bosun's signal
and stormwind in the rigging. The very passage which opens the overture
is extraordinary, unprecedented, with its suggestion of a dark fanfare
and a mad unstoppable onrush, picked up in "Die Frist". Sea-imagery of
this kind dominates the opera, far more effective than, say, the Storm
Music and "Ocean, thou mighty monster!" in Weber's Oberon, superb as
these are.

Dutchman has personal associations for me, admittedly -- my love of the
sea, meeting my wife, and on our honeymoon in Vienna discovering a
performance of it with Gwyneth Jones and Theo Adam from our favourite
recording, the Klemperer. Jones sang like a goddess, Adam far better
than on record, with a superb supporting cast. I would cheerfully go to
that performance over and over again, and indeed to most others I've
seen, inadequate though some were. But it wouldn't have picked up such
associations if it hadn't already struck so deep a chord in me. I'm
sorry it hasn't for you, and can only wish you better luck! The Nelsson
recording is solidly theatrical, one of the best in many ways, but
somewhat handicapped by Estes' poor German and Balslev's charmless voice
(and perhaps also the peculiar staging, sometimes brilliant, sometimes
infuriating, which you can see on the DVD version). It's hard to suggest
one that's vastly better, but the EMI Klemperer might uncover greater
depths for you. Hope so!

Cheers,

Mike
--
***@asgard.zetnet.co.uk
Ralph
2006-08-01 18:31:09 UTC
Permalink
I only have the Nelsson version on CD, so would anyone suggest a
different set that might improve my enjoyment of Der Fliegende
Hollander?
I have four recordings of Hollander, and I like all of them. They are:

1. Klemperer on EMI. A safe first choice. Exciting conducting from
Klemp, good singing all around.

2. Nelsson on Philips.

3. Weil on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi. A good alternative version to have.
This recording is of the original Paris version of 1841, and uses period
instruments. Weil intentionally does not use heavy voices, and this fits
in with his overall concept.

4. Reiner on Naxos Historical: This is a live recording from the
Metropolitan Opera in 1950. Hotter as the Dutchman, and Varnay as Senta
are in their prime. The sound is very good. No libretto.

I should mention one other recording, which I haven't heard. The one
conducted by Sinopoli on DG. The current Penguin Guide, an important if
imperfect source, gives this recording its prime recommendation calling
it "A clear first choice." I would be curious if anyone else agreed with
that, or at least considers it a top tier performance.


Ralph
Dogbert Dilbert
2006-08-02 07:49:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph
I only have the Nelsson version on CD, so would anyone suggest a
different set that might improve my enjoyment of Der Fliegende
Hollander?
1. Klemperer on EMI. A safe first choice. Exciting conducting from
Klemp, good singing all around.
2. Nelsson on Philips.
3. Weil on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi. A good alternative version to have.
This recording is of the original Paris version of 1841, and uses period
instruments. Weil intentionally does not use heavy voices, and this fits
in with his overall concept.
4. Reiner on Naxos Historical: This is a live recording from the
Metropolitan Opera in 1950. Hotter as the Dutchman, and Varnay as Senta
are in their prime. The sound is very good. No libretto.
I should mention one other recording, which I haven't heard. The one
conducted by Sinopoli on DG. The current Penguin Guide, an important if
imperfect source, gives this recording its prime recommendation calling
it "A clear first choice." I would be curious if anyone else agreed with
that, or at least considers it a top tier performance.
Ralph
My thanks to all responders: as it's a GROC. and not going to break
the bank (unlike the Testament 1955 Ring), I'm going to get the
Klemperer and try again with Hollander.

Regards,

Dogbertd
patter
2006-08-03 00:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dogbert Dilbert
Post by Ralph
I only have the Nelsson version on CD, so would anyone suggest a
different set that might improve my enjoyment of Der Fliegende
Hollander?
1. Klemperer on EMI. A safe first choice. Exciting conducting from
Klemp, good singing all around.
2. Nelsson on Philips.
3. Weil on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi. A good alternative version to have.
This recording is of the original Paris version of 1841, and uses period
instruments. Weil intentionally does not use heavy voices, and this fits
in with his overall concept.
4. Reiner on Naxos Historical: This is a live recording from the
Metropolitan Opera in 1950. Hotter as the Dutchman, and Varnay as Senta
are in their prime. The sound is very good. No libretto.
I should mention one other recording, which I haven't heard. The one
conducted by Sinopoli on DG. The current Penguin Guide, an important if
imperfect source, gives this recording its prime recommendation calling
it "A clear first choice." I would be curious if anyone else agreed with
that, or at least considers it a top tier performance.
Ralph
My thanks to all responders: as it's a GROC. and not going to break
the bank (unlike the Testament 1955 Ring), I'm going to get the
Klemperer and try again with Hollander.
Regards,
Dogbertd
You might also try the Klemperer recorded live around the same time as
the EMI version. It has basically the same cast (but an even better
Eric in James King) and is even more of an exciting reading by ol'
Klemp because of the live circumstances. Available on the "Living
Stage" lable. I got mine from Berkshire record outlet for about $13
American-It's my favorite version-and I've heard many! Cheers,Todd
gggg gggg
2023-07-26 18:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph
I only have the Nelsson version on CD, so would anyone suggest a
different set that might improve my enjoyment of Der Fliegende
Hollander?
1. Klemperer on EMI. A safe first choice. Exciting conducting from
Klemp, good singing all around.
2. Nelsson on Philips.
3. Weil on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi. A good alternative version to have.
This recording is of the original Paris version of 1841, and uses period
instruments. Weil intentionally does not use heavy voices, and this fits
in with his overall concept.
4. Reiner on Naxos Historical: This is a live recording from the
Metropolitan Opera in 1950. Hotter as the Dutchman, and Varnay as Senta
are in their prime. The sound is very good. No libretto.
Concerning Reiner -

(Youtube upload):

"Kirsten Flagstad Der fliegende Hollander excerpts (1937 live)"

gggg gggg
2022-09-11 02:11:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dogbert Dilbert
I was heading out to see The Flying Dutchman (20 years ago...) when my
fiend asked me the devastating question "Does anyone actually enjoy
The Flying Dutchman?" I realised that I was going almost out of a
sense of duty, rather than with any great anticipation of enjoyment. I
have to confess I've never been to see The Dutchman ever since.
I wonder how the others in this group feel about this opera? The
overture is definitely geat and I usually enjoy "Die Frist ist Um",
but the rest is (for me) merely OK in a rumpty-tumpty sort of way. I
only have the Nelsson version on CD, so would anyone suggest a
different set that might improve my enjoyment of Der Fliegende
Hollander?
Regards,
Dogbertd
(Youtube upload):

"My experience with Der Fliegende Holländer by Richard Wagner"
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