Wagner as Freemason

[Canyon Rick]

If this has been covered before, then forgive me for this post, but I
couldn't find much about this in all the past threads.

In June I read the the (still) best seller "The DaVinci Code" by Dan
Brown. It was certainly enjoyable enough to read being a sort of
cornucopia of all facts, theories, myths, and half-truths about the
Holy Grail and the ever-ongoing search.

As I recall, the hero, Robert Langdon, late in the book is going thru
a computer database about the Grail or the Knights Templar when he
comes upon a section on the operas of Richard Wagner. I don't have
the book in front of me, but I'm sure it stated unequivocally that
Wagner was a Freemason. The assertion did make me pause, but I'd
never claim to know everything about Wagner (tho I had the feeling
that this was something I would have come across by now).

The only response I found in this group's archives about whether
Wagner was a Freemason was a--literally--"no, he wasn't". End of
story.

However, I did a little web searching and found a couple of sites with
references to this subject. I put ‘Richard Wagner freemason' into
Google and here are some sites along with salient quotes:

1) An odd sort of capsule biography of Wagner quoted, in part:

http://www.manowar.ch/e/rwagner.html

"On January 10th 1835 Wagner´s "Zu den Feen" is 
performed in the Masonic lodge of Magdeburg."

AND

"1872 Wagner and his family are moving to Bayreuth and two years later
into his 
house, which he calls "Wahnfried" and which is built after his design.
The house lies next 
to the Logenhaus. Two years later, in August 1876, the festival
mansion on top the green 
hill is inaugurated by emperor Wilhelm I (freemason since 1840), King
Ludwig II, various 
princes and aristocrats and the première of "Ring der Nibelungen". In
1882 "Parsifal" is 
shown to the public the first time. It is Richard Wagner´s last great
work. "Parsifal" is 
only shown in Bayreuth till 1913. During his life in Bayreuth Wagner
becomes a friend of 
banker Friedrich Feustel, who is Großmeister of the Great Masonic
lodge "Zur Sonne" 
between 1863 and 1872 and between 1878 and 1882. Because of this
friendship and his 
friendship to various other freemasons Richard Wagner wants to join
one of the Masonic 
lodges. However, Feustel advises Wagner against joining the lodge
"Eleusis zur 
Verschwiegenheit" due to intern differences."

AND 

"Because Wagner is interested in all things concerning freemasons and
his contacts to 
freemasons he knows about the freemasons ideas and rituals. His
knowledge becomes 
obvious in "Lohengrin" and "Parsifal". In both plays Wagner mentions
an ominous 
temple. Moreover there seems to be a similarity between "Parsifal" and
Mozart´s "Die 
Zauberflöte", which is a freemason opera. Like Tamino Parsifal has to
wander and enters 
a temple. His wise and old leader Gurnemanz is pretty much the same
figure like Sarastro 
in " Die Zauberflöte". The two great temple feasts, the lovers´ meal
in the first act and the 
funeral obsequies in the third act are similar to contemporary
freemason rituals. 
Important events are beginning midday when the sun is standing high,
or with other 
words when it is "high noon". In the same way the working schedule is
uncovered in the 
freemasons´ temple the Holy Grail is revealed in "Parsifal"."

____
2) There is a German Freemason Museum in Bayreuth (but then there is
also the German Typewriter Museum there).

____
3) Is this "our" Richard Wagner?

http://www.freedomdomain.com/Catalog/catbooka.htm#FM-0410

FM-0410---FREEMASONRY : An Interpretation - Richard Wagner - 375 P. -
$10.00

______
4) Not actually saying Wagner was a mason is this site in it's
discussion of the Magic Flute:

http://immaculatasymphony.org/Nov95.html

"Doubtless, most of these [Masonic] signs went right over the heads of
the audiences attending performances of the Magic Flute. However,
everything else that the public wanted was there, in abundance. It
became Mozart's (and his impresario Schikaneder's) most successful
opera, and probably his greatest work for the stage. Unfortunately, it
was also his last theater work. He completed only the Clarinet
Concerto and his unfinished Requiem before he died within the year.
Who knows whether this new approach to opera would have heralded new
directions had he been able to follow their logical development. He
might well have invented the psychodrama of Richard Wagner. All this,
because he wanted to tangentially celebrate a hidden society that
meant so much to him."

[Is the word I'm looking for here "oxymoron"? "He completed...his
unfinished Requiem before he died..."]

_____
5) And Finally this pro-Mason site (actually sort of a commercial).
I've greatly pared down the list of purported Masons:

http://www.calodges.org/no286/masonicinfo.htm

Paso Robles Lodge No.286 F. & A. M.

More Masonic Information
------------------------------------------------------------------
On this page: (click to jump)

Here are the names of some famous masons of the past and present that
you may have heard of:

Ed "Buzz" Aldrin - - Benedict Arnold - - Gene Autry - Irving Berlin - 
Mel Blanc -  Simon Bolivar - Napoleon Bonaparte - Ernest Borgnine -
Gen. Omar N Bradley - Joe E Brown -    "Kit" Carson  - "Happy"
Chandler  - "Buffalo Bill" Cody - Cecil B DeMille - Jack Dempsey -
Thomas E. Dewey - Robert Dole  - W.C. Fields -Barry Goldwater  -
Franz Joseph Haydn - Harry Houdini  -  Al Jolson - Duke Kuhonomoko 
(surfing champion) - - Christy Mathewson - - Tom Mix -   Arnold
Palmer - Ronald Reagan - Knute Rockne - Roy Rogers - Will Rogers   -
    Danny Thomas   -  Voltaire - Richard Wagner - John Wayne   -
Brigham Young  -

[Wagner and The Duke! Together at last!]

______
There seems to be a few other sites out there along these lines.

If asked, I'm sure I'd probably still respond that it was unlikely
Wagner was a Mason (I'm not wrong about this, am I?), but brace myself
for the counterclaim that because that "fact" was in a New York Times
best seller, it must be so. Obviously, there's are lot of people out
there now who think that he was.

And when the film version is made of The DaVinci Code, should we be
offended if the music sounds like Parsifal?

RICK

[Laon]

Nice work, Rick! Some good discoveries there.

I guess the main reason for thinking that Wagner wasn't a Freemason is
that we know in great detail what he did, and a lot of what he said,
from 1869 when Cosima started her Diaries to 1883. And he never went
to a Lodge meeting in that time, which you think he would, at least
once, if he was a member.

(Could Wagner have been a secret Mason, who sneaked out of the house
at night, while pretending to Cosima that he was off to a rehearsal or
something..? I think not; it's not in character. Why would he hide it
from Cosima? In any case it would be a difficult trick to pull off, I
would expect, under Cosima's gaze.)

So I think Wagner's failure to attend any Masonic meetings, or talk
about Masonic things, ever, not even once, is conclusive evidence that
he wasn't a Mason.

The argument that Wagner's interests coincide at some points with the
interests of Masons is a dud, as far as I can see.

For example, it's probably true to say that _Parsifal_ is somewhat
influenced by _Zauberflöte_, though I don't think the case for
influence can be pushed all that far. And _Zauberflöte_ is indeed a
significantly Masonic work. But I don't think it follows that Wagner
was a Mason because there are Masonic aspects to _Zauberflöte_. After
all, Halévy's _La Juive_ influenced _Parsifal_, and Halévy was Jewish.
Does this mean that Wagner had secretly converted to Judaism?
(Probably not, unfortunately, though it could be a fun case to argue.)

And yes, Wagner was interested in stuff about the Holy Grail, and so
are some Masons, so there's common Wagner-Masons ground there. On the
other hand, Wagner was interested in the Holy Grail in relation to
literary sources, to his interest in German medieval poetic romances,
which are not, as far as I know, of any great fascination to
Freemasons.

Wagner's interest in the Grail stories, for dramatic purposes, is
related to his interest in other Medieval German sources which are not
about the Grail, including Gottfried von Strassberg's _Tristan und
Isolde_ and the _Nibelungenlied_. And if those are of major Masonic
significance, it's news to me. (Emphasis on "major"; I'm sure that
somewhere, some time, a Mason has referred to those stories. But I am
not aware that Masons per se spend a lot of time worrying about
Arthurian tales or German Medieval literature.)


Moreover, a lot of the things that strike me as specifically Masonic,
for example all the cod Egyptology in Masonic symbolism, are entirely
absent in Wagner. And I can think of few man less likely to be
interested in secret handshakes, or turning up the ends of his
trousers and all the other Masonic rutuals, than Wagner.

Cheers!


Laon

[Derrick Everett]

Post by Canyon Rick
If this has been covered before, then forgive me for this post, but I
couldn't find much about this in all the past threads.
In June I read the the (still) best seller "The DaVinci Code" by Dan
Brown. It was certainly enjoyable enough to read being a sort of
cornucopia of all facts, theories, myths, and half-truths about the Holy
Grail and the ever-ongoing search.

I think you might like "Foucault's pendulum" by Umberto Eco. It might
even provide an antidote to the Da Vinci book.

<snip>

Post by Canyon Rick
However, I did a little web searching and found a couple of sites with
references to this subject. I put 'Richard Wagner freemason' into

With respect, all that you have proved is that there is a lot of
inaccurate weirdness to be found on the Internet. There is also much that
is interesting and useful, of course.

<snip>

Post by Canyon Rick
"Because Wagner is interested in all things concerning freemasons and
his contacts to  freemasons he knows about the freemasons ideas and
rituals. His knowledge becomes obvious in "Lohengrin" and "Parsifal".
In both plays Wagner mentions an ominous  temple. Moreover there seems
to be a similarity between "Parsifal" and Mozart´s "Die Zauberflöte",
which is a freemason opera. Like Tamino Parsifal has to wander and
enters a temple. His wise and old leader Gurnemanz is pretty much the
same figure like Sarastro in " Die Zauberflöte". The two great temple
feasts, the lovers´ meal in the first act and the funeral obsequies in
the third act are similar to contemporary freemason rituals.  Important
events are beginning midday when the sun is standing high, or with
other words when it is "high noon". In the same way the working
schedule is uncovered in the freemasons´ temple the Holy Grail is
revealed in "Parsifal"."

The parallels between "Die Zauberflöte" and "Parsifal" are less
significant than the passage quoted above would have us believe. Wagner
himself saw the parallel between Sarastro/Tamino and Gurnemanz/Parsifal;
but that is as far, I think, as there is any parallel. I have seen one
production of "Parsifal" (by Mike Ashman) in which Masonic symbols were
used; an interesting angle but not an insightful one.

The temple mentioned in the poems of "Lohengrin" and "Parsifal" has only
(at most) an indirect connection to the masonic temple, if one accepts
that the "Templeisen" referred to by Wolfram von Eschenbach in "Parzival"
were Knights Templar. This matter has been discussed here before; I am
still convinced that Wolfram's knights are not Templars and that he only
meant that they were an order resembling the Templars. Wagner retained
this idea from Wolfram. If the knights were Templars then they had a
connection to the Temple of Solomon, the original headquarters of their
order; the masonic temple is based on the Temple of Solomon. The temple
referred to in "Lohengrin" and "Parsifal" is at Monsalvat, of course, so
it is not the Temple of Solomon.

The religious rituals in "Parsifal" acts one and three draw on various
Christian and non-Christian religious rituals. There might be elements
from Freemasonry but if so I cannot identify them.

Post by Canyon Rick
this page: (click to jump)
Here are the names of some famous masons of the past and present that
Ed "Buzz" Aldrin - - Benedict Arnold - - Gene Autry - Irving Berlin
-  Mel Blanc -  Simon Bolivar - Napoleon Bonaparte - Ernest Borgnine -
Gen. Omar N Bradley - Joe E Brown -    "Kit" Carson  - "Happy"
Chandler  - "Buffalo Bill" Cody - Cecil B DeMille - Jack Dempsey -
Thomas E. Dewey - Robert Dole  - W.C. Fields -Barry Goldwater  - Franz
Joseph Haydn - Harry Houdini  -  Al Jolson - Duke Kuhonomoko 
(surfing champion) - - Christy Mathewson - - Tom Mix -   Arnold
Palmer - Ronald Reagan - Knute Rockne - Roy Rogers - Will Rogers   -
    Danny Thomas   -  Voltaire - Richard Wagner - John Wayne  
- Brigham Young  -

The last time I was in Bayreuth I went to an exhibition about freemasonry
at the Masonic Lodge which is close to Villa Wahnfried. There was nothing
there to indicate that Richard Wagner had been a freemason.

[s***@yahoo.co.in]

Anyone who deals with the topics of Wagner maybe analyzed to have
favoured freemasonry. The reason is the freemasonry is thriving on
making converts and so adopts any ancient symbols they can get hold of
to convince people into their faith.
One strong argument that Wagner was not freemason bent was undoubtly
his affiliation to King Ludwig II. There is a saga in Bavaria that
Ludwig should have become Kaiser to unite the people again into one
fold. What happened is that he died under very mysterious
circumstances, which in any case were pre- arranged. If anyone plotted
against Ludwig, one can imagine who that could have been? So Wagner
would have had little on his hat to side with forces that plot against
his monarch whom he was to convey his ideals to. Wagner was constantly
in the news in Bavaria and if there would have been the lightest
connection to masonry it would have been published again and again.But
no such thing happened on a large scale.

Mozart is said to have been connected to masonry, but there has been
alot of research that Mozart wanted to leave masonry and was poisened
to prevent his leave.

Post by Derrick Everett

Post by Canyon Rick
If this has been covered before, then forgive me for this post, but I
couldn't find much about this in all the past threads.
In June I read the the (still) best seller "The DaVinci Code" by Dan
Brown. It was certainly enjoyable enough to read being a sort of
cornucopia of all facts, theories, myths, and half-truths about the Holy
Grail and the ever-ongoing search.

I think you might like "Foucault's pendulum" by Umberto Eco. It might
even provide an antidote to the Da Vinci book.
<snip>

Post by Canyon Rick
However, I did a little web searching and found a couple of sites with
references to this subject. I put 'Richard Wagner freemason' into

With respect, all that you have proved is that there is a lot of
inaccurate weirdness to be found on the Internet. There is also much that
is interesting and useful, of course.
<snip>

Post by Canyon Rick
"Because Wagner is interested in all things concerning freemasons and
his contacts to  freemasons he knows about the freemasons ideas and
rituals. His knowledge becomes obvious in "Lohengrin" and "Parsifal".
In both plays Wagner mentions an ominous  temple. Moreover there seems
to be a similarity between "Parsifal" and Mozart´s "Die Zauberflöte",
which is a freemason opera. Like Tamino Parsifal has to wander and
enters a temple. His wise and old leader Gurnemanz is pretty much the
same figure like Sarastro in " Die Zauberflöte". The two great temple
feasts, the lovers´ meal in the first act and the funeral obsequies in
the third act are similar to contemporary freemason rituals.  Important
events are beginning midday when the sun is standing high, or with
other words when it is "high noon". In the same way the working
schedule is uncovered in the freemasons´ temple the Holy Grail is
revealed in "Parsifal"."

The parallels between "Die Zauberflöte" and "Parsifal" are less
significant than the passage quoted above would have us believe. Wagner
himself saw the parallel between Sarastro/Tamino and Gurnemanz/Parsifal;
but that is as far, I think, as there is any parallel. I have seen one
production of "Parsifal" (by Mike Ashman) in which Masonic symbols were
used; an interesting angle but not an insightful one.
The temple mentioned in the poems of "Lohengrin" and "Parsifal" has only
(at most) an indirect connection to the masonic temple, if one accepts
that the "Templeisen" referred to by Wolfram von Eschenbach in "Parzival"
were Knights Templar. This matter has been discussed here before; I am
still convinced that Wolfram's knights are not Templars and that he only
meant that they were an order resembling the Templars. Wagner retained
this idea from Wolfram. If the knights were Templars then they had a
connection to the Temple of Solomon, the original headquarters of their
order; the masonic temple is based on the Temple of Solomon. The temple
referred to in "Lohengrin" and "Parsifal" is at Monsalvat, of course, so
it is not the Temple of Solomon.
The religious rituals in "Parsifal" acts one and three draw on various
Christian and non-Christian religious rituals. There might be elements
from Freemasonry but if so I cannot identify them.

Post by Canyon Rick
this page: (click to jump)
Here are the names of some famous masons of the past and present that
Ed "Buzz" Aldrin - - Benedict Arnold - - Gene Autry - Irving Berlin
-  Mel Blanc -  Simon Bolivar - Napoleon Bonaparte - Ernest Borgnine -
Gen. Omar N Bradley - Joe E Brown -    "Kit" Carson  - "Happy"
Chandler  - "Buffalo Bill" Cody - Cecil B DeMille - Jack Dempsey -
Thomas E. Dewey - Robert Dole  - W.C. Fields -Barry Goldwater  - Franz
Joseph Haydn - Harry Houdini  -  Al Jolson - Duke Kuhonomoko 
(surfing champion) - - Christy Mathewson - - Tom Mix -   Arnold
Palmer - Ronald Reagan - Knute Rockne - Roy Rogers - Will Rogers   -
    Danny Thomas   -  Voltaire - Richard Wagner - John Wayne  
- Brigham Young  -

The last time I was in Bayreuth I went to an exhibition about freemasonry
at the Masonic Lodge which is close to Villa Wahnfried. There was nothing
there to indicate that Richard Wagner had been a freemason.

[Herman van der Woude]

***@yahoo.co.in wrote:
| Anyone who deals with the topics of Wagner maybe analyzed to have
| favoured freemasonry. The reason is the freemasonry is thriving on
| making converts and so adopts any ancient symbols they can get hold of
| to convince people into their faith.

Sorry, but this sounds like real nonsense to me. I will underline here,
that I am not a freemason myself, and I do not intend to be one, but not
long ago there was an information gathering held by freemasons, which my
wife and I attended. What struck me, was the fact that freemasnos do not
convert people. They never did, and they never will. They have a certain,
rather loose philosophy, about developing one's mind (there are
everywhere a lot of good information books about freemasonry, so I will
not go into anymore details about that, as it is irrelevant for the
subject of Wagner's 'supposed' membership of any freemason lodge).
What I will underline, is the fact, that freemasonry is no 'faith' in
itself: a catholic, a jew, a protestant, an atheist, a muslim, they all
can become a freemason and still remain a catholic, a jew, a protestant,
an atheist or a muslim.

| One strong argument that Wagner was not freemason bent was undoubtly
| his affiliation to King Ludwig II. There is a saga in Bavaria that
| Ludwig should have become Kaiser to unite the people again into one
| fold. What happened is that he died under very mysterious
| circumstances, which in any case were pre- arranged. If anyone plotted
| against Ludwig, one can imagine who that could have been?

Ludwig II of Bavaria (born 1845), died in 1886 (three years after
Wagner!). As far as is known, he died a 'suspicious death'. But no theory
about any 'help' in death was ever proved to be true. We only can say,
that he probably took his own life, dragging a poor medical professor
with him into the Starnbergersee.
He died in 1886 - Germany was reunited under Kaiser Wilhelm I from the
House of Hohenzollern (Prussia) in 1871 - far before Ludwig's death.
No-one can really believe that people were plotting (and finally
succeeding!) about 17 years to prevent Ludwig to became Kaiser. There's
also no argument that the freemasons had anything to do with Ludwig's
death.

| So Wagner
| would have had little on his hat to side with forces that plot against
| his monarch whom he was to convey his ideals to. Wagner was constantly
| in the news in Bavaria and if there would have been the lightest
| connection to masonry it would have been published again and again.But
| no such thing happened on a large scale.

As Laon already wrote: "I guess the main reason for thinking that Wagner
wasn't a Freemason is that we know in great detail what he did, and a lot
of what he said, from 1869 when Cosima started her Diaries to 1883. And
he never went to a Lodge meeting in that time, which you think he would,
at least once, if he was a member."

I think, that is proof enough. I can add, that Wagner was a great
believer in the very pessimistic philosophy of Schopenhauer (man is
unable to improve himself). This philosophy is in a great contrast to the
optimistic beliefs of any freemason (man is most certainly able to
improve himself).

Having written that, one can also state that Wagner used anyone and
anything in his life to achieve his goals. If it would have appeared
conveniant at any point in his career to join the freemasons, I am
certain, that he would. But there's no proof that he ever actually did.

| Mozart is said to have been connected to masonry, but there has been
| alot of research that Mozart wanted to leave masonry and was poisened
| to prevent his leave.

Rubbish again. Mozart was a freemason. But we don't know if he ever
wanted to leave freemasonry. It is unlikely as until a few weeks or
months before his death he composed pieces for the freemasons. If he
would have wanted to leave freemasonry, then he would have had the
*liberty* to do so. This is the rule amongst freemasons, not only now,
but in the past as well. Freemasons don't kill their members for their
desire to leave the freemasonry.

I think, that you were influenced by this old tale of the murder of
Mozart - why don't you mention Sallieri as killer? Tchaikovski did...

[Herman van der Woude]

Herman van der Woude wrote:
[snip]
|
| I think, that you were influenced by this old tale of the murder of
| Mozart - why don't you mention Sallieri as killer? Tchaikovski did...

Sorry (blush!...), it was not Tchaikovski, but Rimsky-Korsakov who
composed an opera ('Mozart and Salieri') after a "little tragedy" of
Pushkin.

[s***@yahoo.co.in]

I guess after all there are supposed to be 20.000 or more books on the
subject of freemasonry and many tell a different story than yours,
which you should consider.
Why we should try to convert freemasonry, read here

http://www.secondexodus.com/html/evangelization/evangelizingfreemasons.html

and by the way, catholics cannot become legally freemasons.

And maybe there are only some 350.000 masons in England alone, forget
the US,
and they are all do-gooders, yes if you believe in that all the
victims died happily for the cause of masonry. Sorry, my belief
prohibits me to believe such rubbish.

Post by Herman van der Woude
[snip]
|
| I think, that you were influenced by this old tale of the murder of
| Mozart - why don't you mention Sallieri as killer? Tchaikovski did...
Sorry (blush!...), it was not Tchaikovski, but Rimsky-Korsakov who
composed an opera ('Mozart and Salieri') after a "little tragedy" of
Pushkin.

[Herman van der Woude]

***@yahoo.co.in wrote:
| I guess after all there are supposed to be 20.000 or more books on the
| subject of freemasonry and many tell a different story than yours,
| which you should consider.
| Why we should try to convert freemasonry, read here
|
|
http://www.secondexodus.com/html/evangelization/evangelizingfreemasons.html
|
| and by the way, catholics cannot become legally freemasons.

First of all, the amount of books telling "a different story than mine"
is not enough proof that I am wrong. Freemasonry has noting to do with
any way of religious thinking, but any Christian, Jew, Muslim or
you-name-it can be a freemason, as any Christian, Jew, Muslim could be a
republican. And you know as I do, that there's no point in trying to
convert a republican into a Christian as the vast majority already is...
Secondly, I know personally a catholic priest who became - not
seccretly - a freemason and still remained a cartholic priest!

| And maybe there are only some 350.000 masons in England alone, forget
| the US,
| and they are all do-gooders, yes if you believe in that all the
| victims died happily for the cause of masonry. Sorry, my belief
| prohibits me to believe such rubbish.

It's not me who tries to convert you to be a freemason. As I already
said, I myself am not a freemason and I intend not to become one. I have
good reasons for that. Therefore I can't, nor will try to convert you to
become a freemason yourself. I just want to make you aware, that there
are many fairytales told about freemasons, which are just what they are:
fairytales - and (therefore) untrue!

But this is the kind of discussion which brings us far away from Wagner
and his music, so we better stop this. I know, that I can't convince you
(though i think your reaction is rather narrow-minded), but you most
certainly can't convince me.

[s***@yahoo.co.in]

So lets conclude there is no evidence that Wagner was a freemason,
there is evidence that some parties try to claim Wagner to have been a
mason,
for the claim that you know a catholic priest to be a mason
you should at least provide a masonic registration certificate and a
certificate
of dispensation from the RC Church authority. Catholics by canon law
cannot
be mason and catholic, he would be a excommunicated catholic priest
practising illegally and he would not be allowed to dispense any
sacraments.

Post by Herman van der Woude
| I guess after all there are supposed to be 20.000 or more books on the
| subject of freemasonry and many tell a different story than yours,
| which you should consider.
| Why we should try to convert freemasonry, read here
|
|
http://www.secondexodus.com/html/evangelization/evangelizingfreemasons.html
|
| and by the way, catholics cannot become legally freemasons.
First of all, the amount of books telling "a different story than mine"
is not enough proof that I am wrong. Freemasonry has noting to do with
any way of religious thinking, but any Christian, Jew, Muslim or
you-name-it can be a freemason, as any Christian, Jew, Muslim could be a
republican. And you know as I do, that there's no point in trying to
convert a republican into a Christian as the vast majority already is...
Secondly, I know personally a catholic priest who became - not
seccretly - a freemason and still remained a cartholic priest!
| And maybe there are only some 350.000 masons in England alone, forget
| the US,
| and they are all do-gooders, yes if you believe in that all the
| victims died happily for the cause of masonry. Sorry, my belief
| prohibits me to believe such rubbish.
It's not me who tries to convert you to be a freemason. As I already
said, I myself am not a freemason and I intend not to become one. I have
good reasons for that. Therefore I can't, nor will try to convert you to
become a freemason yourself. I just want to make you aware, that there
fairytales - and (therefore) untrue!
But this is the kind of discussion which brings us far away from Wagner
and his music, so we better stop this. I know, that I can't convince you
(though i think your reaction is rather narrow-minded), but you most
certainly can't convince me.

[Herman van der Woude]

***@yahoo.co.in wrote:
| So lets conclude there is no evidence that Wagner was a freemason,
| there is evidence that some parties try to claim Wagner to have been a
| mason,

The first part of your sentence: "So lets conclude there is no evidence
that Wagner was a freemason" is cristal clear and yes, I do agree with
that conclusion. The second part of that sentence: "there is evidence
that some parties try to claim Wagner to have been a mason" is rather
cryptic, but yes, adding some cryptic stuff myself: that might be true
(It still doesn't make Wagner a freemason).

| for the claim that you know a catholic priest to be a mason
| you should at least provide a masonic registration certificate and a
| certificate
| of dispensation from the RC Church authority. Catholics by canon law
| cannot
| be mason and catholic, he would be a excommunicated catholic priest
| practising illegally and he would not be allowed to dispense any
| sacraments.

As I already wrote (with spelling errors - :-( ): "I know, that I can't
convince you (though I think your reaction is rather narrow-minded), but
you most certainly can't convince me." Meaning with this, that I have no
reason to doubt the things told to me about this catholic priest. Mind
you, there's enough reason to believe that The Roman-Catholic Church
doesn't like their followers or their priests to do things in other
'movements', especially if these movements are spiritual of character.
But as long as the priest concerned, or the church goer is still a obeing
and practising the beliefs and rules of The Church, they cannot
excommunicate him.
I, for me, will not be so silly to ask for any "masonic registration
certificate and a certificate of dispensation from the RC Church
Authority".

Well, as we both agree on the fact that Wagner was no follower of
Freemasonry we can put aside the rest of this discussion as it is not
relevant for issues concerning Wagner and his music.

[s***@yahoo.co.in]

There are a few corrections to be made yet:

There are parties trying to draw Wagner to their belief and be it just
for commercial reasons. We had a thread below a few months ago called
Adrian Wagner? Maybe it is still ther?. The man is convincing some
royalists people that he is the greatgrandson of Richard Wagner. Then
he is tying up to others claiming a royal history that goes back
before a married Christ, others even that believe in african orgins
from the UFOs. This made even David Icke scream out.
There has been so much written why masons cannot be catholic, that I
will not elaborate here.

Just listen to to what a ex-mason recently said:

http://www.thegospel.org/Pages/PClub.asp

Bill Schnoebelen
08/13/03 Exposing the Illuminati from Within #1 Audio Real
08/14/03 Exposing the Illuminati from Within #2 Audio Real
08/15/03 Exposing the Illuminati from Within #3 Audio Real

or read here

MASONS -- what are you all about?

http://66.242.35.139/bbs/message.php?message=161914&topic=3

Post by Herman van der Woude
| So lets conclude there is no evidence that Wagner was a freemason,
| there is evidence that some parties try to claim Wagner to have been a
| mason,
The first part of your sentence: "So lets conclude there is no evidence
that Wagner was a freemason" is cristal clear and yes, I do agree with
that conclusion. The second part of that sentence: "there is evidence
that some parties try to claim Wagner to have been a mason" is rather
cryptic, but yes, adding some cryptic stuff myself: that might be true
(It still doesn't make Wagner a freemason).
| for the claim that you know a catholic priest to be a mason
| you should at least provide a masonic registration certificate and a
| certificate
| of dispensation from the RC Church authority. Catholics by canon law
| cannot
| be mason and catholic, he would be a excommunicated catholic priest
| practising illegally and he would not be allowed to dispense any
| sacraments.
As I already wrote (with spelling errors - :-( ): "I know, that I can't
convince you (though I think your reaction is rather narrow-minded), but
you most certainly can't convince me." Meaning with this, that I have no
reason to doubt the things told to me about this catholic priest. Mind
you, there's enough reason to believe that The Roman-Catholic Church
doesn't like their followers or their priests to do things in other
'movements', especially if these movements are spiritual of character.
But as long as the priest concerned, or the church goer is still a obeing
and practising the beliefs and rules of The Church, they cannot
excommunicate him.
I, for me, will not be so silly to ask for any "masonic registration
certificate and a certificate of dispensation from the RC Church
Authority".
Well, as we both agree on the fact that Wagner was no follower of
Freemasonry we can put aside the rest of this discussion as it is not
relevant for issues concerning Wagner and his music.

[Herman van der Woude]

***@yahoo.co.in wrote:
| There are a few corrections to be made yet:

[snip]

Sorry, this has nothing to do with Wagner, so: end of the ride!

[Mike Scott Rohan]

Post by s***@yahoo.co.in
There are parties trying to draw Wagner to their belief and be it just
for commercial reasons. We had a thread below a few months ago called
Adrian Wagner? Maybe it is still ther?. The man is convincing some
royalists people that he is the greatgrandson of Richard Wagner. Then
he is tying up to others claiming a royal history that goes back
before a married Christ, others even that believe in african orgins
from the UFOs. This made even David Icke scream out.
There has been so much written why masons cannot be catholic, that I
will not elaborate here.

If you don't mind my saying so -- good.

[s***@yahoo.co.in]

I do not comprehend what you mean? But if the question why catholics
are not allowed to become masons, it makes sense to me.
that there are many masons secretly in the churchs hirarchy highest
places is no secret either.
See the new film on the "bankers of God", il caso Calvi. Trailer by
Google, I have seen it.

Post by Mike Scott Rohan

Post by s***@yahoo.co.in
There are parties trying to draw Wagner to their belief and be it just
for commercial reasons. We had a thread below a few months ago called
Adrian Wagner? Maybe it is still ther?. The man is convincing some
royalists people that he is the greatgrandson of Richard Wagner. Then
he is tying up to others claiming a royal history that goes back
before a married Christ, others even that believe in african orgins
from the UFOs. This made even David Icke scream out.
There has been so much written why masons cannot be catholic, that I
will not elaborate here.

If you don't mind my saying so -- good.

[Canyon Rick]

I got hold of a copy of The Da Vinci Code (by Dan Brown) this weekend.
Here is the exact passage from Chapter 95 of the book:
_______________________________________________________________
Langdon and Sophie sat patiently in front of the screen and
waited through two more dubious returns. When the computer pinged
again, though, the offering was unexpected.

Die Opern von Richard Wagner

"The operas of Wagner?" Sophie asked.
Gettum peeked back in the doorway, holding a packet of instant
coffee. "That seems like a strange match. Was Wagner a knight?"
"No," Langdon said, feeling a sudden intrigue. "But he was a
well-known Freemason." Along with Mozart, Beethoven, Shakespeare,
Gershwin, Houdini, and Disney. Volumes had been written about the
ties between the Masons, and the Knights Templar, the Priory of Sion,
and the Holy Grail. "I want to look at this one. How do I see the
full text?"
"You don't want the full text," Gettum called. "Click on the
hypertext title. The computer will display you keyboard hits along
with mono prelogs and triple postlogs for context."
Langdon had no idea what she had just said, but he clicked
anyway.
A new window popped up.

. . . mythological KNIGHT named Parsifal who . . .
. . . metaphorical GRAIL quest that arguably . . .
. . . the LONDON Philharmonic in 1855 . . .
. . . Rebecca POPE'S opera anthology "Diva's . . .
. . . Wagner's TOMB in Bayreuth, Germany . . .

"Wrong Pope," Langdon said, disappointed. Even so, he was amazed
by the system's ease of use. The keywords with context were enough to
remind him that Wagner's opera Parsifal was a tribute to Mary
Magdalene and the bloodline of Jesus Christ, told through the story of
a young knight on a quest for the truth.
_______________________________________________________________
As of this morning, The Da Vinci Code is still #3 on the Times best
seller list.

RICK

[Derrick Everett]

Post by Canyon Rick
I got hold of a copy of The Da Vinci Code (by Dan Brown) this weekend.
_______________________________________________________________
Langdon and Sophie sat patiently in front of the screen and
waited through two more dubious returns. When the computer pinged
again, though, the offering was unexpected.
Die Opern von Richard Wagner
"The operas of Wagner?" Sophie asked.
Gettum peeked back in the doorway, holding a packet of instant
coffee. "That seems like a strange match. Was Wagner a knight?"
"No," Langdon said, feeling a sudden intrigue. "But he was a
well-known Freemason." Along with Mozart, Beethoven, Shakespeare,
Gershwin, Houdini, and Disney. Volumes had been written about the
ties between the Masons, and the Knights Templar, the Priory of Sion,
and the Holy Grail. "I want to look at this one. How do I see the
full text?"
"You don't want the full text," Gettum called. "Click on the
hypertext title. The computer will display you keyboard hits along
with mono prelogs and triple postlogs for context."
Langdon had no idea what she had just said, but he clicked
anyway.
A new window popped up.
. . . mythological KNIGHT named Parsifal who . . .
. . . metaphorical GRAIL quest that arguably . . .
. . . the LONDON Philharmonic in 1855 . . .
. . . Rebecca POPE'S opera anthology "Diva's . . .
. . . Wagner's TOMB in Bayreuth, Germany . . .
"Wrong Pope," Langdon said, disappointed. Even so, he was amazed
by the system's ease of use. The keywords with context were enough to
remind him that Wagner's opera Parsifal was a tribute to Mary
Magdalene and the bloodline of Jesus Christ, told through the story of
a young knight on a quest for the truth.
_______________________________________________________________
As of this morning, The Da Vinci Code is still #3 on the Times best
seller list.

Barf.

[Mike Scott Rohan]

The message <***@posting.google.com>
from ***@yahoo.com (Canyon Rick) contains these words:

{snip}

Post by Canyon Rick
Gettum peeked back in the doorway, holding a packet of instant
coffee. "That seems like a strange match. Was Wagner a knight?"
"No," Langdon said, feeling a sudden intrigue. "But he was a
well-known Freemason." Along with Mozart, Beethoven, Shakespeare,
Gershwin, Houdini, and Disney.

Du sublime au ridicule......

Volumes had been written about the

Post by Canyon Rick
ties between the Masons, and the Knights Templar, the Priory of Sion,
and the Holy Grail.

And generally left in trains.

The keywords with context were enough to

Post by Canyon Rick
remind him that Wagner's opera Parsifal was a tribute to Mary
Magdalene and the bloodline of Jesus Christ, told through the story of
a young knight on a quest for the truth.

*Remind* him?

Post by Canyon Rick
_______________________________________________________________
As of this morning, The Da Vinci Code is still #3 on the Times best
seller list.

Well, what can you expect since Murdoch bought the rag? (And I stopped
writing for it.)

Seriously, though, the idea is a fascinating one. Here we are in the
1930s, with Fascists across Europe blaming everything on Jews,
Communists and Freemasons, and attacking all three. So all the masons
everywhere obligingly fail to point out that Germany's deified Richard
was a well-known funny-handshaker? Damned obliging of them, what?


Cheers,

Mike

[Hans Christian Hoff]

And Shakespeare (1564-1616) ? At at time whenFreemasonry was anyhing but a
society of stonemasons, set on preserving the secrets of their craft.

Regards

Hans

Regards

Post by Mike Scott Rohan
{snip}

Post by Canyon Rick
Gettum peeked back in the doorway, holding a packet of instant
coffee. "That seems like a strange match. Was Wagner a knight?"
"No," Langdon said, feeling a sudden intrigue. "But he was a
well-known Freemason." Along with Mozart, Beethoven, Shakespeare,
Gershwin, Houdini, and Disney.

Du sublime au ridicule......
Volumes had been written about the

Post by Canyon Rick
ties between the Masons, and the Knights Templar, the Priory of Sion,
and the Holy Grail.

And generally left in trains.
The keywords with context were enough to

Post by Canyon Rick
remind him that Wagner's opera Parsifal was a tribute to Mary
Magdalene and the bloodline of Jesus Christ, told through the story of
a young knight on a quest for the truth.

*Remind* him?

Post by Canyon Rick
_______________________________________________________________
As of this morning, The Da Vinci Code is still #3 on the Times best
seller list.

Well, what can you expect since Murdoch bought the rag? (And I stopped
writing for it.)
Seriously, though, the idea is a fascinating one. Here we are in the
1930s, with Fascists across Europe blaming everything on Jews,
Communists and Freemasons, and attacking all three. So all the masons
everywhere obligingly fail to point out that Germany's deified Richard
was a well-known funny-handshaker? Damned obliging of them, what?
Cheers,
Mike
--