Discussion:
"...The bond between Sachs and Eva is in fact remarkably similar to that between the Marschallin and Octavian."
(too old to reply)
g***@gmail.com
2020-10-01 04:29:23 UTC
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https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
deb
2020-10-06 19:41:10 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
g***@gmail.com
2020-10-07 15:47:01 UTC
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Post by deb
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.

Consider the letter 'r'.

In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?

But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?

And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?

And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?

Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?

Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand?
deb
2020-10-12 13:57:32 UTC
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Post by deb
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
g***@gmail.com
2020-10-12 17:14:45 UTC
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Post by deb
Post by deb
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Should the lower classes be forced to live lives where they are constantly worried because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those above them?
g***@gmail.com
2020-10-12 21:01:51 UTC
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Post by deb
Post by deb
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Should anyone be forced to live a life of constant worry because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
g***@gmail.com
2020-10-13 02:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by deb
Post by deb
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
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2020-10-18 15:40:53 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
deb
2020-10-19 14:26:51 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There are similarities, for those who have the education to see them. Wish I did!
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2020-10-19 17:52:36 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There are similarities, for those who have the education to see them. Wish I did!
Concerning the abuse of power, how about DER RING...?:

https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=false
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2020-10-19 17:58:35 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There are similarities, for those who have the education to see them. Wish I did!
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=false
The abuse of power has been a problem throughout human history. Ever heard of the Magna Carta?:

And that problem is not going away anytime soon:

https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916a
deb
2020-10-20 20:05:57 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There are similarities, for those who have the education to see them. Wish I did!
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=false
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916a
True, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comes from the renunciation of power for love's sake, is its central message. But you started by comparing 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier,' both of which are comedies, in which high-level power-play would be out of place. There is a serious message in each, but it's concerned less with power and manipulation forcing choices, than with human error and how to untangle it. The parallel characters I see are Weit Pogner and Herr Faninal, Sophie's father, both of whom, desiring the best for their darling child and the family, have got them into a ghastly situation. Fortunately, these are comedies and help is at hand.

What other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (didn't Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cry of 'Allmachtiger, dir sei Preis! Gross ist die Wunder eure Gnaden!' makes the hair rise on my neck, with its mixture of exultation and loss. The court of the Wartburg may have power-games going on, but the game that matters in the opera is the game of chivalry, with its idealization of spiritual love, and Elisabeth's constancy to her inconstant lover. She is like Margarethe in 'Faust,' the intercessor whose pure and selfless love enables erring man to approach God. The 19th C. loved pure and selfless women, from Marguerite to Peer Gynt's Solveig.

What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate, whatever it may be. However, her other suitor takes her careless words as a promise, so that the Dutchman sees her as forsworn--she will be damned like all the others who betrayed him. But this time, he is really experiencing love, and for the first time he can feel for other people. Until that last scene, he's only been sorry for himself, never for his crew or the other women. And he is ready to give up his only hope of rest, and set sail forever, rather than marry and damn her. Senta's answering self-sacrifice unites them in death. So would I say 'learning love' is the theme there? I can't speculate on 'Tristan und Isolde' or 'Parsifal' tonight.
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2020-10-21 00:54:19 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There are similarities, for those who have the education to see them. Wish I did!
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=false
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916a
True, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comes from the renunciation of power for love's sake, is its central message. But you started by comparing 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier,' both of which are comedies, in which high-level power-play would be out of place. There is a serious message in each, but it's concerned less with power and manipulation forcing choices, than with human error and how to untangle it. The parallel characters I see are Weit Pogner and Herr Faninal, Sophie's father, both of whom, desiring the best for their darling child and the family, have got them into a ghastly situation. Fortunately, these are comedies and help is at hand.
What other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (didn't Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cry of 'Allmachtiger, dir sei Preis! Gross ist die Wunder eure Gnaden!' makes the hair rise on my neck, with its mixture of exultation and loss. The court of the Wartburg may have power-games going on, but the game that matters in the opera is the game of chivalry, with its idealization of spiritual love, and Elisabeth's constancy to her inconstant lover. She is like Margarethe in 'Faust,' the intercessor whose pure and selfless love enables erring man to approach God. The 19th C. loved pure and selfless women, from Marguerite to Peer Gynt's Solveig.
What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate, whatever it may be. However, her other suitor takes her careless words as a promise, so that the Dutchman sees her as forsworn--she will be damned like all the others who betrayed him. But this time, he is really experiencing love, and for the first time he can feel for other people. Until that last scene, he's only been sorry for himself, never for his crew or the other women. And he is ready to give up his only hope of rest, and set sail forever, rather than marry and damn her. Senta's answering self-sacrifice unites them in death. So would I say 'learning love' is the theme there? I can't speculate on 'Tristan und Isolde' or 'Parsifal' tonight.
I think that my view is more simplistic (too simplistic?) which is:

- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There are similarities, for those who have the education to see them. Wish I did!
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=false
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916a
True, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comes from the renunciation of power for love's sake, is its central message. But you started by comparing 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier,' both of which are comedies, in which high-level power-play would be out of place. There is a serious message in each, but it's concerned less with power and manipulation forcing choices, than with human error and how to untangle it. The parallel characters I see are Weit Pogner and Herr Faninal, Sophie's father, both of whom, desiring the best for their darling child and the family, have got them into a ghastly situation. Fortunately, these are comedies and help is at hand.
What other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (didn't Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cry of 'Allmachtiger, dir sei Preis! Gross ist die Wunder eure Gnaden!' makes the hair rise on my neck, with its mixture of exultation and loss. The court of the Wartburg may have power-games going on, but the game that matters in the opera is the game of chivalry, with its idealization of spiritual love, and Elisabeth's constancy to her inconstant lover. She is like Margarethe in 'Faust,' the intercessor whose pure and selfless love enables erring man to approach God. The 19th C. loved pure and selfless women, from Marguerite to Peer Gynt's Solveig.
What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate, whatever it may be. However, her other suitor takes her careless words as a promise, so that the Dutchman sees her as forsworn--she will be damned like all the others who betrayed him. But this time, he is really experiencing love, and for the first time he can feel for other people. Until that last scene, he's only been sorry for himself, never for his crew or the other women. And he is ready to give up his only hope of rest, and set sail forever, rather than marry and damn her. Senta's answering self-sacrifice unites them in death. So would I say 'learning love' is the theme there? I can't speculate on 'Tristan und Isolde' or 'Parsifal' tonight.
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
And that one should go along with norms when it comes to decision-making.
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2020-10-27 05:34:11 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There are similarities, for those who have the education to see them. Wish I did!
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=false
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916a
True, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comes from the renunciation of power for love's sake, is its central message. But you started by comparing 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier,' both of which are comedies, in which high-level power-play would be out of place. There is a serious message in each, but it's concerned less with power and manipulation forcing choices, than with human error and how to untangle it. The parallel characters I see are Weit Pogner and Herr Faninal, Sophie's father, both of whom, desiring the best for their darling child and the family, have got them into a ghastly situation. Fortunately, these are comedies and help is at hand.
What other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (didn't Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cry of 'Allmachtiger, dir sei Preis! Gross ist die Wunder eure Gnaden!' makes the hair rise on my neck, with its mixture of exultation and loss. The court of the Wartburg may have power-games going on, but the game that matters in the opera is the game of chivalry, with its idealization of spiritual love, and Elisabeth's constancy to her inconstant lover. She is like Margarethe in 'Faust,' the intercessor whose pure and selfless love enables erring man to approach God. The 19th C. loved pure and selfless women, from Marguerite to Peer Gynt's Solveig.
What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate, whatever it may be. However, her other suitor takes her careless words as a promise, so that the Dutchman sees her as forsworn--she will be damned like all the others who betrayed him. But this time, he is really experiencing love, and for the first time he can feel for other people. Until that last scene, he's only been sorry for himself, never for his crew or the other women. And he is ready to give up his only hope of rest, and set sail forever, rather than marry and damn her. Senta's answering self-sacrifice unites them in death. So would I say 'learning love' is the theme there? I can't speculate on 'Tristan und Isolde' or 'Parsifal' tonight.
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
And that one should go along with norms when it comes to decision-making.
Concerning the Renoir's 1939 film "Rules of the Game", the following may be of interest:

- What is the game in Rules of the Game? The superficial answer is that it is the game of marital infidelity: society diverts erotic energies that might otherwise be destructive by permitting certain men to appropriate certain women for the purpose of temporary gratification. The rules are: that serious (i.e., legal or financial) claims must be avoided; that appearances must be maintained; that certain proprieties must be respected ("the young," Lisette reminds Octave, "should go with the young, the old with the old").

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~agoldham/articles/REGLE.html
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2020-10-27 06:05:07 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There are similarities, for those who have the education to see them. Wish I did!
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=false
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916a
True, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comes from the renunciation of power for love's sake, is its central message. But you started by comparing 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier,' both of which are comedies, in which high-level power-play would be out of place. There is a serious message in each, but it's concerned less with power and manipulation forcing choices, than with human error and how to untangle it. The parallel characters I see are Weit Pogner and Herr Faninal, Sophie's father, both of whom, desiring the best for their darling child and the family, have got them into a ghastly situation. Fortunately, these are comedies and help is at hand.
What other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (didn't Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cry of 'Allmachtiger, dir sei Preis! Gross ist die Wunder eure Gnaden!' makes the hair rise on my neck, with its mixture of exultation and loss. The court of the Wartburg may have power-games going on, but the game that matters in the opera is the game of chivalry, with its idealization of spiritual love, and Elisabeth's constancy to her inconstant lover. She is like Margarethe in 'Faust,' the intercessor whose pure and selfless love enables erring man to approach God. The 19th C. loved pure and selfless women, from Marguerite to Peer Gynt's Solveig.
What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate, whatever it may be. However, her other suitor takes her careless words as a promise, so that the Dutchman sees her as forsworn--she will be damned like all the others who betrayed him. But this time, he is really experiencing love, and for the first time he can feel for other people. Until that last scene, he's only been sorry for himself, never for his crew or the other women. And he is ready to give up his only hope of rest, and set sail forever, rather than marry and damn her. Senta's answering self-sacrifice unites them in death. So would I say 'learning love' is the theme there? I can't speculate on 'Tristan und Isolde' or 'Parsifal' tonight.
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
And that one should go along with norms when it comes to decision-making.
And if norms have anything to do with propriety, consider Renoir's 1939 film "Rules of the Game":

- What is the game in Rules of the Game? The superficial answer is that it is the game of marital infidelity: society diverts erotic energies that might otherwise be destructive by permitting certain men to appropriate certain women for the purpose of temporary gratification. The rules are: that serious (i.e., legal or financial) claims must be avoided; that appearances must be maintained; that certain proprieties must be respected ("the young," Lisette reminds Octave, "should go with the young, the old with the old").

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~agoldham/articles/REGLE.html
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2020-11-02 06:00:42 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There are similarities, for those who have the education to see them. Wish I did!
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=false
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916a
True, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comes from the renunciation of power for love's sake, is its central message. But you started by comparing 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier,' both of which are comedies, in which high-level power-play would be out of place. There is a serious message in each, but it's concerned less with power and manipulation forcing choices, than with human error and how to untangle it. The parallel characters I see are Weit Pogner and Herr Faninal, Sophie's father, both of whom, desiring the best for their darling child and the family, have got them into a ghastly situation. Fortunately, these are comedies and help is at hand.
What other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (didn't Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cry of 'Allmachtiger, dir sei Preis! Gross ist die Wunder eure Gnaden!' makes the hair rise on my neck, with its mixture of exultation and loss. The court of the Wartburg may have power-games going on, but the game that matters in the opera is the game of chivalry, with its idealization of spiritual love, and Elisabeth's constancy to her inconstant lover. She is like Margarethe in 'Faust,' the intercessor whose pure and selfless love enables erring man to approach God. The 19th C. loved pure and selfless women, from Marguerite to Peer Gynt's Solveig.
What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate, whatever it may be. However, her other suitor takes her careless words as a promise, so that the Dutchman sees her as forsworn--she will be damned like all the others who betrayed him. But this time, he is really experiencing love, and for the first time he can feel for other people. Until that last scene, he's only been sorry for himself, never for his crew or the other women. And he is ready to give up his only hope of rest, and set sail forever, rather than marry and damn her. Senta's answering self-sacrifice unites them in death. So would I say 'learning love' is the theme there? I can't speculate on 'Tristan und Isolde' or 'Parsifal' tonight.
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
And that one should go along with norms when it comes to decision-making.
- What is the game in Rules of the Game? The superficial answer is that it is the game of marital infidelity: society diverts erotic energies that might otherwise be destructive by permitting certain men to appropriate certain women for the purpose of temporary gratification. The rules are: that serious (i.e., legal or financial) claims must be avoided; that appearances must be maintained; that certain proprieties must be respected ("the young," Lisette reminds Octave, "should go with the young, the old with the old").
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~agoldham/articles/REGLE.html
And the Marschallin knows that she must not cling to her young lover as "Sunset Boulevard"'s Norma Desmond does.

After all, doesn't she say to Octavian?:

- One must be light, light of heart, light of hand, holding and taking, holding and letting go. Life punishes those who are not so and God has no mercy upon them.
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2020-11-02 19:01:48 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There are similarities, for those who have the education to see them. Wish I did!
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=false
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916a
True, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comes from the renunciation of power for love's sake, is its central message. But you started by comparing 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier,' both of which are comedies, in which high-level power-play would be out of place. There is a serious message in each, but it's concerned less with power and manipulation forcing choices, than with human error and how to untangle it. The parallel characters I see are Weit Pogner and Herr Faninal, Sophie's father, both of whom, desiring the best for their darling child and the family, have got them into a ghastly situation. Fortunately, these are comedies and help is at hand.
What other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (didn't Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cry of 'Allmachtiger, dir sei Preis! Gross ist die Wunder eure Gnaden!' makes the hair rise on my neck, with its mixture of exultation and loss. The court of the Wartburg may have power-games going on, but the game that matters in the opera is the game of chivalry, with its idealization of spiritual love, and Elisabeth's constancy to her inconstant lover. She is like Margarethe in 'Faust,' the intercessor whose pure and selfless love enables erring man to approach God. The 19th C. loved pure and selfless women, from Marguerite to Peer Gynt's Solveig.
What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate, whatever it may be. However, her other suitor takes her careless words as a promise, so that the Dutchman sees her as forsworn--she will be damned like all the others who betrayed him. But this time, he is really experiencing love, and for the first time he can feel for other people. Until that last scene, he's only been sorry for himself, never for his crew or the other women. And he is ready to give up his only hope of rest, and set sail forever, rather than marry and damn her. Senta's answering self-sacrifice unites them in death. So would I say 'learning love' is the theme there? I can't speculate on 'Tristan und Isolde' or 'Parsifal' tonight.
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
And that one should go along with norms when it comes to decision-making.
- What is the game in Rules of the Game? The superficial answer is that it is the game of marital infidelity: society diverts erotic energies that might otherwise be destructive by permitting certain men to appropriate certain women for the purpose of temporary gratification. The rules are: that serious (i.e., legal or financial) claims must be avoided; that appearances must be maintained; that certain proprieties must be respected ("the young," Lisette reminds Octave, "should go with the young, the old with the old").
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~agoldham/articles/REGLE.html
Concerning propriety, even plantation owners in GONE WITH THE WIND are portrayed as having to be mindful that slaves were part of a plantation hierarchy and didn't exist solely to be at mercy of their owners. 

When Scarlett tells a slave to search for a pig:

- Pork was amazed and indignant. "Miss Scarlett, dat a fe'el han's bizness. Ah's allus been a house nigger."... Tears trembled in Pork's hurt eyes. Oh, if only [Scarlett's mother] was here! She understood such niceties and realized the wide gap between the duties of a field hand and those of a house nigger.

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200161.txt
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort...
According to Kant:

- We have a moral duty to satisfy the legitimate needs of others as dictated by logic and reason.

https://books.google.com/books?id=dMMEnn-OJQMC&pg=PT418&dq=%22We+have+a+moral+duty+to+satisfy+the+legitimate+needs+of+others+as+dictated+by+logic+and+reason.%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiRv--r8p7tAhUr5eAKHUFMC6YQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22We%20have%20a%20moral%20duty%20to%20satisfy%20the%20legitimate%20needs%20of%20others%20as%20dictated%20by%20logic%20and%20reason.%22&f=false
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2020-11-07 05:56:49 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There are similarities, for those who have the education to see them. Wish I did!
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=false
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916a
True, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comes from the renunciation of power for love's sake, is its central message. But you started by comparing 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier,' both of which are comedies, in which high-level power-play would be out of place. There is a serious message in each, but it's concerned less with power and manipulation forcing choices, than with human error and how to untangle it. The parallel characters I see are Weit Pogner and Herr Faninal, Sophie's father, both of whom, desiring the best for their darling child and the family, have got them into a ghastly situation. Fortunately, these are comedies and help is at hand.
What other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (didn't Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cry of 'Allmachtiger, dir sei Preis! Gross ist die Wunder eure Gnaden!' makes the hair rise on my neck, with its mixture of exultation and loss. The court of the Wartburg may have power-games going on, but the game that matters in the opera is the game of chivalry, with its idealization of spiritual love, and Elisabeth's constancy to her inconstant lover. She is like Margarethe in 'Faust,' the intercessor whose pure and selfless love enables erring man to approach God. The 19th C. loved pure and selfless women, from Marguerite to Peer Gynt's Solveig.
What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate, whatever it may be. However, her other suitor takes her careless words as a promise, so that the Dutchman sees her as forsworn--she will be damned like all the others who betrayed him. But this time, he is really experiencing love, and for the first time he can feel for other people. Until that last scene, he's only been sorry for himself, never for his crew or the other women. And he is ready to give up his only hope of rest, and set sail forever, rather than marry and damn her. Senta's answering self-sacrifice unites them in death. So would I say 'learning love' is the theme there? I can't speculate on 'Tristan und Isolde' or 'Parsifal' tonight.
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
And as far as I am concerned, no one is free to do as they please--even those at the top.

If a person starts allowing himself to do as he pleases, he will start to become careless, then reckless, then destructive and even self-destructive. (Although oftentimes not soon enough for me.)
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2020-11-10 17:11:54 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There are similarities, for those who have the education to see them. Wish I did!
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=false
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916a
True, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comes from the renunciation of power for love's sake, is its central message. But you started by comparing 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier,' both of which are comedies, in which high-level power-play would be out of place. There is a serious message in each, but it's concerned less with power and manipulation forcing choices, than with human error and how to untangle it. The parallel characters I see are Weit Pogner and Herr Faninal, Sophie's father, both of whom, desiring the best for their darling child and the family, have got them into a ghastly situation. Fortunately, these are comedies and help is at hand.
What other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (didn't Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cry of 'Allmachtiger, dir sei Preis! Gross ist die Wunder eure Gnaden!' makes the hair rise on my neck, with its mixture of exultation and loss. The court of the Wartburg may have power-games going on, but the game that matters in the opera is the game of chivalry, with its idealization of spiritual love, and Elisabeth's constancy to her inconstant lover. She is like Margarethe in 'Faust,' the intercessor whose pure and selfless love enables erring man to approach God. The 19th C. loved pure and selfless women, from Marguerite to Peer Gynt's Solveig.
What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate, whatever it may be. However, her other suitor takes her careless words as a promise, so that the Dutchman sees her as forsworn--she will be damned like all the others who betrayed him. But this time, he is really experiencing love, and for the first time he can feel for other people. Until that last scene, he's only been sorry for himself, never for his crew or the other women. And he is ready to give up his only hope of rest, and set sail forever, rather than marry and damn her. Senta's answering self-sacrifice unites them in death. So would I say 'learning love' is the theme there? I can't speculate on 'Tristan und Isolde' or 'Parsifal' tonight.
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
- If you are a sparrow, don't attack the eagle; be wise! If you are an eagle, don't attack the sparrow; be just!

Mehmet Murat Ildan
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.'...
What about Gotterdammerung's Wotan?:

- This [prologue] mirrors the opening of Rhinegold with the three Rhinedaughters and the crime against nature with the theft of the gold, which Wagner reminds us of with the Rhine motif. Three Norns, Erda’s daughters, weave the threads of fate (their weaving becomes an inversion of the Rhine motif). They sing of long ago when they wove at the base of the World Ash Tree. There Wotan gave up an eye to drink from the stream of wisdom, but also he tore a limb from the tree to make his spear. Because of this violence, the tree is now dead, the result of Wotan’s abuse of power, perverting his wisdom, symbolized by the stream of wisdom drying up. The Norns tell of the final collapse of the old world order which has become rotten at its ‘roots.’ The tree now provides the funeral pyre for the waiting gods, resigned to their doom...Typical of the period, Wagner’s Romanticism was both idealistic (infinite longing) and fatalistic (inevitable disappointment). Attempting through abuse of power to hold onto what we cannot keep causes us to hurt and destroy others and is ultimately futile.

https://larryavisbrown.com/ring-of-the-nibelung-twilight/
gggg gggg
2021-03-04 05:57:37 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.'...
- This [prologue] mirrors the opening of Rhinegold with the three Rhinedaughters and the crime against nature with the theft of the gold, which Wagner reminds us of with the Rhine motif. Three Norns, Erda’s daughters, weave the threads of fate (their weaving becomes an inversion of the Rhine motif). They sing of long ago when they wove at the base of the World Ash Tree. There Wotan gave up an eye to drink from the stream of wisdom, but also he tore a limb from the tree to make his spear. Because of this violence, the tree is now dead, the result of Wotan’s abuse of power, perverting his wisdom, symbolized by the stream of wisdom drying up. The Norns tell of the final collapse of the old world order which has become rotten at its ‘roots.’ The tree now provides the funeral pyre for the waiting gods, resigned to their doom...Typical of the period, Wagner’s Romanticism was both idealistic (infinite longing) and fatalistic (inevitable disappointment). Attempting through abuse of power to hold onto what we cannot keep causes us to hurt and destroy others and is ultimately futile.
https://larryavisbrown.com/ring-of-the-nibelung-twilight/
Concerning social hierarchy, does this describe the relationship between the top and everyone else?:

- I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

Leo Tolstoy
g***@gmail.com
2020-11-09 21:22:22 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Concerning the Japanese movie SEVEN SAMURAI, consider what the son of a farmer said about the samurai who were the ruling class in Japan:

- What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty! Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! But then . . . who made them such beasts? You did! You samurai did it! You burn their villages! Destroy their farms! Steal their food! Force them to labour! Take their women! And kill them if they resist! So what should farmers do? Damn it... [He sinks to his knees, sobbing] Damn it... God damn it...

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Seven_Samurai
REP
2020-12-05 23:10:05 UTC
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- What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty! Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! But then . . . who made them such beasts? You did! You samurai did it! You burn their villages! Destroy their farms! Steal their food! Force them to labour! Take their women! And kill them if they resist! So what should farmers do? Damn it... [He sinks to his knees, sobbing] Damn it... God damn it...
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Seven_Samurai
Great movie. One of my favorites.

REP
gggg gggg
2021-01-18 01:57:59 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
- What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty! Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! But then . . . who made them such beasts? You did! You samurai did it! You burn their villages! Destroy their farms! Steal their food! Force them to labour! Take their women! And kill them if they resist! So what should farmers do? Damn it... [He sinks to his knees, sobbing] Damn it... God damn it...
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Seven_Samurai
- I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

Leo Tolstoy
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2021-01-21 04:31:42 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
- What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty! Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! But then . . . who made them such beasts? You did! You samurai did it! You burn their villages! Destroy their farms! Steal their food! Force them to labour! Take their women! And kill them if they resist! So what should farmers do? Damn it... [He sinks to his knees, sobbing] Damn it... God damn it...
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Seven_Samurai
Concerning "Seven Samurai" and norms:

- Yet, in a normal world, the political authorities should sense both a duty and their self-interest in protecting the producing class from unfair treatment.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/How_to_Improve_Your_Movie_Literacy_With/vMWfDAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22Yet,%20in%20a%20normal%20world,%20the%20political%20authorities%20should%22
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2021-01-21 05:38:32 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
- What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty! Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! But then . . . who made them such beasts? You did! You samurai did it! You burn their villages! Destroy their farms! Steal their food! Force them to labour! Take their women! And kill them if they resist! So what should farmers do? Damn it... [He sinks to his knees, sobbing] Damn it... God damn it...
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Seven_Samurai
- Yet, in a normal world, the political authorities should sense both a duty and their self-interest in protecting the producing class from unfair treatment.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/How_to_Improve_Your_Movie_Literacy_With/vMWfDAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22Yet,%20in%20a%20normal%20world,%20the%20political%20authorities%20should%22
If you don't think that people even in these times don't crave for normality, this recent article on the inauguration mentions the word 'normal' a dozen times:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/01/20/biden-harris-inauguration-put-normal-proud-display-column/4214868001/
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2022-01-16 06:12:40 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
- What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty! Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! But then . . . who made them such beasts? You did! You samurai did it! You burn their villages! Destroy their farms! Steal their food! Force them to labour! Take their women! And kill them if they resist! So what should farmers do? Damn it... [He sinks to his knees, sobbing] Damn it... God damn it...
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Seven_Samurai
(Recent Youtube upload):

Samurai Being *ssholes: Abusing Peasants
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2022-03-30 03:45:32 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)

- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)
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2022-06-09 04:41:52 UTC
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On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7,
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Post by deb
Post by deb
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)
- . But we shall also do our part to build a world of peace where the weak are safe and the strong are just.

John F. Kennedy (COMMENCEMENT ADDRESS AT AMERICAN UNIVERSITY, WASHINGTON, D.C., JUNE 10, 1963)

https://www.jfklibrary.org/archives/other-resources/john-f-kennedy-speeches/american-university-19630610
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2022-06-09 06:42:59 UTC
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On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7,
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by deb
Post by deb
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)
If a person has no rights, then aren't they at the mercy of the whims of those socially above them?:

- However, eunuchs as the [Chinese] Emperor's slaves had no rights and could be abused at the Emperor's whim. The Emperor Puyi recalled in his memoirs of growing up in the Forbidden City that: "By the age of 11, flogging eunuchs was part of my daily routine. My cruelty and love of power were already too firmly set for persuasion to have any effect on me... Whenever I was in a bad temper the eunuchs would be in for trouble."[125][128]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuchs_in_China#Qing_dynasty
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2022-06-09 06:59:57 UTC
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Post by gggg gggg
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7,
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by deb
Post by deb
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)
If a person has no rights, then aren't they basically slaves subject to abuse because they are at the mercy of the whims of those socially above them?:

- However, eunuchs as the [Chinese] Emperor's slaves had no rights and could be abused at the Emperor's whim. The Emperor Puyi recalled in his memoirs of growing up in the Forbidden City that: "By the age of 11, flogging eunuchs was part of my daily routine. My cruelty and love of power were already too firmly set for persuasion to have any effect on me... Whenever I was in a bad temper the eunuchs would be in for trouble."[125][128]......The Chinese eunuchs [at the Summer Palace]...had their own women slaves who were the daughters of poor people they purchased them from and they used these women for sex.[167][168][169][170]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuchs_in_China#Qing_dynasty
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2022-06-16 03:01:38 UTC
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Post by gggg gggg
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7,
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by deb
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Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)
If persons have no rights, then aren't they basically slaves subject to abuse because they are at the mercy of the whims of those socially above them?:

- However, eunuchs as the [Chinese] Emperor's slaves had no rights and could be abused at the Emperor's whim. The Emperor Puyi recalled in his memoirs of growing up in the Forbidden City that: "By the age of 11, flogging eunuchs was part of my daily routine. My cruelty and love of power were already too firmly set for persuasion to have any effect on me... Whenever I was in a bad temper the eunuchs would be in for trouble."[125][128]......The Chinese eunuchs [at the Summer Palace]...had their own women slaves who were the daughters of poor people they purchased them from and they used these women for sex.[167][168][169][170]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuchs_in_China#Qing_dynasty
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)
- However, eunuchs as the [Chinese] Emperor's slaves had no rights and could be abused at the Emperor's whim. The Emperor Puyi recalled in his memoirs of growing up in the Forbidden City that: "By the age of 11, flogging eunuchs was part of my daily routine. My cruelty and love of power were already too firmly set for persuasion to have any effect on me... Whenever I was in a bad temper the eunuchs would be in for trouble."[125][128]......The Chinese eunuchs [at the Summer Palace]...had their own women slaves who were the daughters of poor people they purchased them from and they used these women for sex.[167][168][169][170]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuchs_in_China#Qing_dynasty
Human nature is weak. (Dr. Fauci)

(2022 Youtube upload):

"What slavery reveals about human nature | Douglas Murray and Lex Fridman"
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2022-08-02 05:27:35 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)
- However, eunuchs as the [Chinese] Emperor's slaves had no rights and could be abused at the Emperor's whim. The Emperor Puyi recalled in his memoirs of growing up in the Forbidden City that: "By the age of 11, flogging eunuchs was part of my daily routine. My cruelty and love of power were already too firmly set for persuasion to have any effect on me... Whenever I was in a bad temper the eunuchs would be in for trouble."[125][128]......The Chinese eunuchs [at the Summer Palace]...had their own women slaves who were the daughters of poor people they purchased them from and they used these women for sex.[167][168][169][170]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuchs_in_China#Qing_dynasty
(2022 Youtube upload):

"Should robots have rights? | Yann LeCun and Lex Fridman"
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2022-10-05 08:17:24 UTC
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No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig, and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig. It's worth remembering that, unlike Mastersingers, this is satire, mocking the conventions and pretensions of a couple of generations before--and perhaps asking the audience whether it may have pretensions of its own.
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)
- However, eunuchs as the [Chinese] Emperor's slaves had no rights and could be abused at the Emperor's whim. The Emperor Puyi recalled in his memoirs of growing up in the Forbidden City that: "By the age of 11, flogging eunuchs was part of my daily routine. My cruelty and love of power were already too firmly set for persuasion to have any effect on me... Whenever I was in a bad temper the eunuchs would be in for trouble."[125][128]......The Chinese eunuchs [at the Summer Palace]...had their own women slaves who were the daughters of poor people they purchased them from and they used these women for sex.[167][168][169][170]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuchs_in_China#Qing_dynasty
- If you want to find out what a man is to the bottom, give him power. Any man can stand adversity — only a great man can stand prosperity. It is the glory of Abraham Lincoln that he never abused power only on the side of mercy.

Robert Ingersoll
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2020-10-13 02:16:14 UTC
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https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig...
If an ill-e. pig lives only for his appetites, then isn't a person who lives only for his appetites abnormal?

..., and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig....

Can an abnormal person live a normal life if he lives only to satisfy his appetites and nothing else?
g***@gmail.com
2020-10-19 16:20:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by deb
Post by deb
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig...
If an ill-e. pig lives only for his appetites, then isn't a person who lives only for his appetites abnormal?
..., and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig....
Can an abnormal person live a normal life if he lives only to satisfy his appetites and nothing else?
The following may be of interest:

- Baron Ochs auf Lerchenau is the boorish bully in Richard Strauss’s Die Rosenkavalier. He delights in bragging to his cousin Princess Marie Thérèse von Werdenberg, the Marschallin, of seducing peasant girls on his estate. Baron Ochs is coarse and rude and propositions chambermaid Mariandel (who is actually the Marschallin’s lover, Octavian, in disguise)...The Duke of Mantua in Giuseppe Verdi’s opera Rigoletto is a rude womanizer and not a beloved ruler...Early on, the Duke brags about his seductions: ”Questa o quella,” “This woman or that.…”

https://simanaitissays.com/2017/05/07/trumping-the-arts/
g***@gmail.com
2020-10-19 16:37:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by deb
Post by deb
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of his estate, to buy a town house and investments. So, who is on top? Walther, the aristocrat? Eva, who is sought after? Pogner, who has rashly committed her to marry a Master? Sachs, to whom they all go for wisdom and advice? One of the points made by Pogner is that the merchants and tradesmen of Nueremberg are social equals in their love of their art, and the question is whether a part-time officer and country nobleman can aspire to equality with them. This is where Beckmesser, out of jealousy, does abuse his responsibility as Marker to get Walther disqualified, by sticking to every formal convention which Walther has never learned, in the face of his natural talent and inspiration. Sachs sees deeper, and would willingly grant Walther the right to compete, but won't go against the decision of the Masters.
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here, or deprived of 'normal lives?'
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--Ochs' interpretation of his 'rights,' even more clearly expressed when he insists the marriage contract with the Faninals should grant him a 'Morgengabe'--normally a gift the husband made to his wife on finding her to be a virgin on her wedding night, but which Ochs sees as the price of his conferring noble status on Sophie. He is a most complete picture of an ill-educated pig...
If an ill-e. pig lives only for his appetites, then isn't a person who lives only for his appetites abnormal?
..., and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a suitable life for a pig....
Can an abnormal person live a normal life if he lives only to satisfy his appetites and nothing else?
- Baron Ochs auf Lerchenau is the boorish bully in Richard Strauss’s Die Rosenkavalier. He delights in bragging to his cousin Princess Marie Thérèse von Werdenberg, the Marschallin, of seducing peasant girls on his estate. Baron Ochs is coarse and rude and propositions chambermaid Mariandel (who is actually the Marschallin’s lover, Octavian, in disguise)...The Duke of Mantua in Giuseppe Verdi’s opera Rigoletto is a rude womanizer and not a beloved ruler...Early on, the Duke brags about his seductions: ”Questa o quella,” “This woman or that.…”
https://simanaitissays.com/2017/05/07/trumping-the-arts/
And consider DER RING...:

https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=false
gggg gggg
2020-12-08 16:04:50 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, October 7, 2020 at 5:47:03 AM UTC-10,
Post by deb
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand?
Concerning rights, according to the following:

- He is supportive of the idea that since human beings are one species, there must be some claims we make upon each other that have universal status. He doesn’t think, in other words, that rights are a Western invention with no purchase elsewhere.

https://literaryreview.co.uk/when-virtue-is-not-enough
gggg gggg
2021-01-06 23:42:53 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, October 7, 2020 at 8:47:03 AM UTC-7,
Post by deb
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand?
Concerning the letter 'r', also keep in mind the word 'reciprocity' when it comes the 'rights' and 'responsibilities' of unequal classes.

According to this:

- ...Not only should a just government recognize the rights of the more talented natures, but it should recognize the desire of the mass of men not to be disturbed and bullied by these aspiring talents. The prudent statesman endeavors to maintain a balance between these two claims.

https://kirkcenter.org/politics-and-social-order/the-best-form-of-government/

"Prudent statesman" = Hans Sachs?
gggg gggg
2022-03-23 05:52:15 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, October 7, 2020 at 5:47:03 AM UTC-10,
Post by deb
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand?
Concerning responsibilites and rights:

https://www.globaleast.org/wp-content/uploads/1999/05/ResponsibilitiesAndRights.pdf
gggg gggg
2023-08-30 05:33:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by deb
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
No, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you ashore by the bridge. Sachs' knowledge of human nature is deep and forgiving, because his experiences of love and loss have made it so. Being in some ways a father-figure, he sees it as his duty to bring his god-daughter to the happiness she deserves and couldn't choose for herself.
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to find pleasure without creating the pain of betrayal in an innocent party, and ruinous scandal for the less innocent. Sachs is surprised into love by Eva's sudden womanhood; while the Marschallin loves Oktavian, for his boyish unselfconsciousness. She knows he will be her last young lover, and wants to savor this love as long as possible. Oktavian, however, is surprised into maturity by his sudden, chivalrous love for Sophie, his desire to rescue her from an odious marriage and--a parallel here, right enough--give her all the happiness that he knows she deserves, and cannot choose for herself. The Marschallin is no more surprised than Sachs, but is much more graceful than Sachs in passing Oktavian on to his true love; but then Sachs is a cobbler and the Marschallin a court lady.
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
(Sorry for the confusion):

Here is the link to the source of the quote in the topic heading:

https://books.google.com/books?id=ULlVdD0eC40C&pg=PA213&dq=%22the+bond+between+Sachs+and+Eva+is+in+fact+remarkably+similar+to+that+between+the+Marschallin+and+Octavian.%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjBgbX7ro3sAhVRqaQKHbPDBXwQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20bond%20between%20Sachs%20and%20Eva%20is%20in%20fact%20remarkably%20similar%20to%20that%20between%20the%20Marschallin%20and%20Octavian.%22&f=false
REP
2021-01-07 05:07:41 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
The difference between Sachs and the Marschallin that everyone always overlooks is that the Marschallin gave in to her (some would say perverse) desires, whereas Sachs did not. Just imagine if Die Meistersinger began with a scene with Hans Sachs and Eva in bed together!

This is why I cannot think of these two characters as being at all similar, and why I find Sachs admirable, and the Marschallin much less so.

REP
deb
2021-01-07 14:59:48 UTC
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Post by REP
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
The difference between Sachs and the Marschallin that everyone always overlooks is that the Marschallin gave in to her (some would say perverse) desires, whereas Sachs did not. Just imagine if Die Meistersinger began with a scene with Hans Sachs and Eva in bed together!
This is why I cannot think of these two characters as being at all similar, and why I find Sachs admirable, and the Marschallin much less so.
REP
I think I agree with you, REP. A married woman with a young lover is an altogether more 20th C. device than a widower quietly in love with a friend's daughter.
gggg gggg
2022-08-25 02:26:29 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
Giving rights prevents exploitation by restraining parasitic and predatory behavior.

"In Panama, Nature Now Has Rights Just Like People and Corporations":

https://www.ecowatch.com/panama-nature-rights.html
gggg gggg
2022-09-06 01:43:03 UTC
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Post by gggg gggg
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
Giving rights prevents exploitation by restraining parasitic and predatory behavior.
https://www.ecowatch.com/panama-nature-rights.html
"Giving nature human rights could be the best way to protect the planet" (2019 article):

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332492-800-giving-nature-human-rights-could-be-the-best-way-to-protect-the-planet/
gggg gggg
2022-09-20 22:39:34 UTC
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Post by gggg gggg
Post by gggg gggg
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
Giving rights prevents exploitation by restraining parasitic and predatory behavior.
https://www.ecowatch.com/panama-nature-rights.html
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332492-800-giving-nature-human-rights-could-be-the-best-way-to-protect-the-planet/
(2022 Youtube upload):

"Should robots have rights? | Yann LeCun and Lex Fridman"
gggg gggg
2023-04-29 03:19:34 UTC
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Post by gggg gggg
Post by gggg gggg
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
Giving rights prevents exploitation by restraining parasitic and predatory behavior.
https://www.ecowatch.com/panama-nature-rights.html
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332492-800-giving-nature-human-rights-could-be-the-best-way-to-protect-the-planet/
"How a Tribal Rights Lawyer Is Winning Back the Rights of Nature":

https://countercurrents.org/2023/04/how-a-tribal-rights-lawyer-is-winning-back-the-rights-of-nature/
gggg gggg
2023-08-30 04:51:04 UTC
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Post by gggg gggg
Post by gggg gggg
Post by gggg gggg
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
Giving rights prevents exploitation by restraining parasitic and predatory behavior.
https://www.ecowatch.com/panama-nature-rights.html
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332492-800-giving-nature-human-rights-could-be-the-best-way-to-protect-the-planet/
https://countercurrents.org/2023/04/how-a-tribal-rights-lawyer-is-winning-back-the-rights-of-nature/
(2023 Youtube upload):

"Does Nature Have Rights? | WILD HOPE | Full Episode"
gggg gggg
2023-04-17 20:54:08 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
Could a message of Meistersigner and Rosenkavalier be?:

- Hierarchy shouldn't be allowed to blind one to normality.
gggg gggg
2023-05-27 02:36:53 UTC
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Post by gggg gggg
Post by g***@gmail.com
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
- Hierarchy shouldn't be allowed to blind one to normality.
Hierarchy/seniority shouldn't be allowed to blind one to normality.
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