Discussion:
Der Ring des Nibelungen
(too old to reply)
B***@gmail.com
2008-05-27 19:34:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi friends,

A trouble to me. An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him. Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?

(What kills me is that he knows opera...)

Tonnes of thanks.

Blessings
SF
John Bryant
2008-05-27 19:42:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by B***@gmail.com
Hi friends,
A trouble to me.  An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him.  Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?
(What kills me is that he knows opera...)
Tonnes of thanks.
Blessings
SF
How "modern" is modern? Solti's recording of the Ring was made between
1958 & 1965, but it sounds as if it could have been recorded
yesterday. Not only that, it's absolutely stunning.

JB.
Lionel Tacchini
2008-05-27 20:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bryant
Post by B***@gmail.com
Hi friends,
A trouble to me.  An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him.  Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?
(What kills me is that he knows opera...)
Tonnes of thanks.
Blessings
SF
How "modern" is modern? Solti's recording of the Ring was made between
1958 & 1965, but it sounds as if it could have been recorded
yesterday. Not only that, it's absolutely stunning.
40 years old is not "modern".

This 4 year old production under Bertrand de Billy might do much
better for someone who most certainly knows all the holy cows which
will be discussed here and would enjoy finding out what has been
happening relatively recently:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9950285

It's on DVD though.

Lionel Tacchini
John Bryant
2008-05-27 21:01:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lionel Tacchini
40 years old is not "modern".
No, but it *sounds* "modern".
Post by Lionel Tacchini
This 4 year old production under Bertrand de Billy might do much
better for someone who most certainly knows all the holy cows which
will be discussed here and would enjoy finding out what has been
happening relatively recently:http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9950285
You may well be right, and I'm sure that the OP will take note of all
recommendations - as would I.
Post by Lionel Tacchini
It's on DVD though.
That's great if one has a DVD player, but I haven't. Thanks anyway,
it's always good to hear an alternative view.

Regards,

JB.
Wagner Fan
2008-05-27 21:21:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lionel Tacchini
40 years old is not "modern".
No, but it *sounds* "modern".
Post by Lionel Tacchini
This 4 year old production under Bertrand de Billy might do much
better for someone who most certainly knows all the holy cows which
will be discussed here and would enjoy finding out what has been
happening relatively
recently:http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9950285
You may well be right, and I'm sure that the OP will take note of all
recommendations - as would I.
Post by Lionel Tacchini
It's on DVD though.
That's great if one has a DVD player, but I haven't. Thanks anyway,
it's always good to hear an alternative view.

Regards,

JB.


No no - get the Solti - its the one Ring to have if you're having only one -
it better cast than any other complete, has stupendous sound and its
extremely satisfying for a first timer - one can go into other versions with
other virtues later on. Wagner Fan
John Bryant
2008-05-27 21:30:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wagner Fan
No no - get the Solti - its the one Ring to have if you're having only one -
it better cast than any other complete, has stupendous sound and its
extremely satisfying for a first timer - one can go into other versions with
other virtues later on.  Wagner Fan
Thanks, but I already have it - hence my recommendation. I agree with
you completely, the sound is marvellous and the performance almost
faultless. In my humble opinion, of course.

JB.
Kalman Rubinson
2008-05-27 23:39:10 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 May 2008 14:30:45 -0700 (PDT), John Bryant
Post by John Bryant
Post by Wagner Fan
No no - get the Solti - its the one Ring to have if you're having only one -
it better cast than any other complete, has stupendous sound and its
extremely satisfying for a first timer - one can go into other versions with
other virtues later on.  Wagner Fan
Thanks, but I already have it - hence my recommendation. I agree with
you completely, the sound is marvellous and the performance almost
faultless. In my humble opinion, of course.
Then, what are you looking for? There are several new Rings in
multichannel on DVD and SACD but they require other than CD
players in order to experience the multichannel effects.

The Haenchen Ring performances on Et'Cetera is supposedly
based on some new scholarship and the performance is not
bad at all.

Kal
Wagner Fan
2008-05-27 23:46:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kalman Rubinson
On Tue, 27 May 2008 14:30:45 -0700 (PDT), John Bryant
Post by John Bryant
Post by Wagner Fan
No no - get the Solti - its the one Ring to have if you're having only one -
it better cast than any other complete, has stupendous sound and its
extremely satisfying for a first timer - one can go into other versions with
other virtues later on. Wagner Fan
Thanks, but I already have it - hence my recommendation. I agree with
you completely, the sound is marvellous and the performance almost
faultless. In my humble opinion, of course.
Then, what are you looking for? There are several new Rings in
multichannel on DVD and SACD but they require other than CD
players in order to experience the multichannel effects.
The Haenchen Ring performances on Et'Cetera is supposedly
based on some new scholarship and the performance is not
bad at all.
Kal
I thought the original poster was clear in that he was looking for CDs.
Wagner Fan
Kalman Rubinson
2008-05-28 01:58:40 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 May 2008 19:46:54 -0400, "Wagner Fan"
Post by Wagner Fan
Post by Kalman Rubinson
On Tue, 27 May 2008 14:30:45 -0700 (PDT), John Bryant
Post by John Bryant
Post by Wagner Fan
No no - get the Solti - its the one Ring to have if you're having only one -
it better cast than any other complete, has stupendous sound and its
extremely satisfying for a first timer - one can go into other versions with
other virtues later on. Wagner Fan
Thanks, but I already have it - hence my recommendation. I agree with
you completely, the sound is marvellous and the performance almost
faultless. In my humble opinion, of course.
Then, what are you looking for? There are several new Rings in
multichannel on DVD and SACD but they require other than CD
players in order to experience the multichannel effects.
The Haenchen Ring performances on Et'Cetera is supposedly
based on some new scholarship and the performance is not
bad at all.
Kal
I thought the original poster was clear in that he was looking for CDs.
All the SACDs I mentioned are hybrids and will play on ordinary CD
players.

Kal
John Bryant
2008-05-27 23:50:42 UTC
Permalink
Then, what are you looking for?  There are several new Rings in
multichannel on DVD and SACD but they require other than CD
players in order to experience the multichannel effects.  
The Haenchen Ring performances on Et'Cetera is supposedly
based on some new scholarship and the performance is not
bad at all.
Kal
Thanks for your recommendation, but I'm not looking for any more
Wagner as my collection of his music is more-or-less complete, apart
from a couple of early works - Die Feen, for example.

JB.
William Sommerwerck
2008-05-28 01:04:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kalman Rubinson
On Tue, 27 May 2008 14:30:45 -0700 (PDT), John Bryant
The Haenchen Ring performances on Et'Cetera is supposedly
based on some new scholarship and the performance is not
bad at all.
I have this SACD set, and though I have reservations, it's a performance
quite unlike any other. It makes an excellent complement to the Solti.

I like the Boulez, too, but it appears to be only available as a DVD set.
Walter Traprock
2008-05-28 17:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
I like the Boulez, too, but it appears to be only available as a DVD set.
Ach, it's available as CD without libretto:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Ring-Nibelungen-Richard/dp/B000I8OFIM/

i bought it like a year or so ago at borders.
Boulez without Chereau is the way to go.
it's still not completely modern, but take a look at the subject matter!
Jeterbug
2008-05-28 16:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bryant
Post by Lionel Tacchini
40 years old is not "modern".
No, but it *sounds* "modern".
Post by Lionel Tacchini
This 4 year old production under Bertrand de Billy might do much
better for someone who most certainly knows all the holy cows which
will be discussed here and would enjoy finding out what has been
happening relatively
recently:http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9950285
You may well be right, and I'm sure that the OP will take note of all
recommendations - as would I.
Post by Lionel Tacchini
It's on DVD though.
That's great if one has a DVD player, but I haven't. Thanks anyway,
it's always good to hear an alternative view.
Regards,
JB.
No no - get the Solti - its the one Ring to have if you're having only one -
it better cast than any other complete, has stupendous sound and its
extremely satisfying for a first timer - one can go into other versions with
other virtues later on. �Wagner Fan
I am of the opinion that a monumntal work like the Ring DESERVES you
spend all your money and purchase on CD/DVD what you cn..Yes,the
Solti,plus the Dereyck Cook analysis of the Ring...and so much
else.......Even the modern stuff (The Boulez...which is MILD compared
to the crazy ones like the Stuttgart) is valuable.....It takes time
and effort..but this body of work is so well worth spending time and
gelt...Good Luck CH
Mike Scott Rohan
2008-05-28 19:51:19 UTC
Permalink
The message
<efa9222c-5b40-425c-80b9-***@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>
from Lionel Tacchini <***@arcor.de> contains these words:

{snip}
Post by Lionel Tacchini
Post by John Bryant
How "modern" is modern? Solti's recording of the Ring was made between
1958 & 1965, but it sounds as if it could have been recorded
yesterday. Not only that, it's absolutely stunning.
40 years old is not "modern".
But it still sounds remarkably new and fresh. And when no modern
recording has surpassed it, what can one say?
Post by Lionel Tacchini
This 4 year old production under Bertrand de Billy might do much
better for someone who most certainly knows all the holy cows which
will be discussed here and would enjoy finding out what has been
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9950285
It's on DVD though.
While I quite like the de Billy Ring as a whole, and it's one of the
more sensible modern stagings, I feel de Billy is rather a soggy,
shapeless conductor compared to the better CD recordings, and the
casting is variable -- even singers I like, such as Richard Berkeley
Steele and John Treleaven, aren't in their best voice (though T was
better than at Covent Garden).

Cheers,

Mike
--
***@asgard.zetnet.co.uk
Richard Partridge
2008-05-28 20:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bryant
Post by B***@gmail.com
Hi friends,
A trouble to me.  An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him.  Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?
(What kills me is that he knows opera...)
Tonnes of thanks.
Blessings
SF
How "modern" is modern? Solti's recording of the Ring was made between
1958 & 1965, but it sounds as if it could have been recorded
yesterday. Not only that, it's absolutely stunning.
JB.
You say he wants a "more modern" recording. Does that mean, more modern
than one he already has?

If you were looking for DVD's, the idea of "more modern" would be meaningful
because nowadays the stage managers of Wagner's operas usually do crazy
things, and some people like that. But in the case of CD's, the only reason
to want a modern set is because the sound fidelity might be better. I would
second JB's recommendation -- the fidelity of the Solti recording is more
than acceptable to the connoisseur of high fidelity.


Dick Partridge
AlisonC
2008-05-27 23:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by B***@gmail.com
Hi friends,
A trouble to me.  An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him.  Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?
(What kills me is that he knows opera...)
Tonnes of thanks.
Blessings
SF
It's a nice idea but I think rather than buying a surprise present it
might be a good idea to discuss it with the birthday boy - people who
are keen on Wagner often have several sets of Ring recordings already
and strong feelings about which other ones they want. For example, I
believe the Keilberth Ring on Testament is very popular at the moment
but it's not modern - more "rediscovered". http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//SBT141412.htm
Terry
2008-05-28 08:02:46 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 May 2008 05:34:36 +1000, ***@gmail.com wrote
(in article
Post by B***@gmail.com
Hi friends,
A trouble to me. An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him. Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?
(What kills me is that he knows opera...)
Tonnes of thanks.
Blessings
SF
Get him the Janowski, on RCA. I've taken a long time over it, and have
listened to a lot of sets, and have come to the conclusion that this is the
best set of all, when all factors are taken into account.
--
Cheers!

Terry
Wagner Fan
2008-05-28 09:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
(in article
Post by B***@gmail.com
Hi friends,
A trouble to me. An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him. Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?
(What kills me is that he knows opera...)
Tonnes of thanks.
Blessings
SF
Get him the Janowski, on RCA. I've taken a long time over it, and have
listened to a lot of sets, and have come to the conclusion that this is the
best set of all, when all factors are taken into account.
--
Cheers!
Terry
Not a good idea for a first timer since he will have to pay extra for the
libretti - and also put up with an almost but not quite Brunnhilde (not a
good idea) Wagner Fan
David Sherman
2008-05-28 13:55:57 UTC
Permalink
For a "modern" Ring cycle:

James Levine and the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra

I don't know what you'll think of the performers on this recording, but I
saw the production at the Met with Levine conducting and it was beyond
spectacular.

I feel that the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra under the baton of Levine is
one of the best ensembles in the world. Yes, you heard right - in the
world! Levine's performances are always of the highest caliber.

Released in 2002 on Deutsche Grammophon, it's worth a look.
wkasimer
2008-05-28 14:10:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Sherman
James Levine and the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
I don't know what you'll think of the performers on this recording, but I
saw the production at the Met with Levine conducting and it was beyond
spectacular.
I feel that the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra under the baton of Levine is
one of the best ensembles in the world.  Yes, you heard right - in the
world!  Levine's performances are always of the highest caliber.
Released in 2002 on Deutsche Grammophon, it's worth a look.
Yes, and it's ridiculously cheap from Canadian sources at the moment.
But there are "issues" - chiefly a very unsteady Brunnhilde in
Hildegard Behrens, and a weak Siegfried in Reiner Goldberg. And while
the orchestra is fabulous, they are, unfortunately, not very well
recorded; the sonics on this set are, I think, very disappointing and
vastly inferior to Solti, Janowski, Barenboim, and any number of other
sets.

If I were giving a gift RING this year, it would certainly be the
Keilberth on Testament.

Bill
gman
2008-05-28 14:53:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Sherman
James Levine and the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
I don't know what you'll think of the performers on this recording, but I
saw the production at the Met with Levine conducting and it was beyond
spectacular.
I feel that the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra under the baton of Levine is
one of the best ensembles in the world.  Yes, you heard right - in the
world!  Levine's performances are always of the highest caliber.
Released in 2002 on Deutsche Grammophon, it's worth a look.
Not to mention the absolutely MAGNIFICENT Brunnhilde of Hildegard
Behrens, probably the greatest, most complete characterization, and
totally idiomatic. You are right, Levine, the Met Orchestra and the
great Behrens makes this set indispensible.
WagnerMacht
Andy
2008-05-28 16:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by gman
Post by David Sherman
James Levine and the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
I don't know what you'll think of the performers on this recording, but I
saw the production at the Met with Levine conducting and it was beyond
spectacular.
I feel that the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra under the baton of Levine is
one of the best ensembles in the world. Yes, you heard right - in the
world! Levine's performances are always of the highest caliber.
Released in 2002 on Deutsche Grammophon, it's worth a look.
Not to mention the absolutely MAGNIFICENT Brunnhilde of Hildegard
Behrens, probably the greatest, most complete characterization, and
totally idiomatic. You are right, Levine, the Met Orchestra and the
great Behrens makes this set indispensible.
WagnerMacht
On the subject of inexpensive Rings, I just ordered the Clemens Krauss
version from an Amazon seller for about $7.00, including shipping.
I wasn't really looking to buy that one, but why not for that price.
Appears to be available for about the same on ebay.
Wagner Fan
2008-05-28 16:32:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy
Post by gman
Post by David Sherman
James Levine and the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
I don't know what you'll think of the performers on this recording, but I
saw the production at the Met with Levine conducting and it was beyond
spectacular.
I feel that the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra under the baton of Levine is
one of the best ensembles in the world. Yes, you heard right - in the
world! Levine's performances are always of the highest caliber.
Released in 2002 on Deutsche Grammophon, it's worth a look.
Not to mention the absolutely MAGNIFICENT Brunnhilde of Hildegard
Behrens, probably the greatest, most complete characterization, and
totally idiomatic. You are right, Levine, the Met Orchestra and the
great Behrens makes this set indispensible.
WagnerMacht
On the subject of inexpensive Rings, I just ordered the Clemens Krauss
version from an Amazon seller for about $7.00, including shipping.
I wasn't really looking to buy that one, but why not for that price.
Appears to be available for about the same on ebay.
It depends on the pressing - the best current remastering is the Opera D'Oro
and the worst is the Archipel which has some strange simulated stereo sound
on the Rheingold. Wagner Fan
AMH
2008-05-28 17:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wagner Fan
Post by Andy
Post by gman
Post by David Sherman
James Levine and the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
I don't know what you'll think of the performers on this recording, but I
saw the production at the Met with Levine conducting and it was beyond
spectacular.
I feel that the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra under the baton of Levine is
one of the best ensembles in the world. Yes, you heard right - in the
world! Levine's performances are always of the highest caliber.
Released in 2002 on Deutsche Grammophon, it's worth a look.
Not to mention the absolutely MAGNIFICENT Brunnhilde of Hildegard
Behrens, probably the greatest, most complete characterization, and
totally idiomatic. You are right, Levine, the Met Orchestra and the
great Behrens makes this set indispensible.
WagnerMacht
On the subject of inexpensive Rings, I just ordered the Clemens Krauss
version from an Amazon seller for about $7.00, including shipping.
I wasn't really looking to buy that one, but why not for that price.
Appears to be available for about the same on ebay.
It depends on the pressing - the best current remastering is the Opera D'Oro
and the worst is the Archipel which has some strange simulated stereo sound
on the Rheingold. Wagner Fan
Its the Opera D'Oro pressing. At least it is supposed to be. I
suppose I'll find out.
u***@yahoo.com
2008-05-28 18:22:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wagner Fan
Post by Andy
Post by gman
Post by David Sherman
James Levine and the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
I don't know what you'll think of the performers on this recording, but I
saw the production at the Met with Levine conducting and it was beyond
spectacular.
I feel that the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra under the baton of Levine is
one of the best ensembles in the world.  Yes, you heard right - in the
world!  Levine's performances are always of the highest caliber.
Released in 2002 on Deutsche Grammophon, it's worth a look.
Not to mention the absolutely MAGNIFICENT Brunnhilde of Hildegard
Behrens, probably the greatest, most complete characterization, and
totally idiomatic. You are right, Levine, the Met Orchestra and the
great Behrens makes this set indispensible.
WagnerMacht
On the subject of inexpensive Rings, I just ordered the Clemens Krauss
version from  an Amazon seller for about $7.00, including shipping.
I wasn't really looking to buy that one, but why not for that price.
Appears to be available for about the same on ebay.
It depends on the pressing - the best current remastering is the Opera D'Oro
and the worst is the Archipel which has some strange simulated stereo sound
on the Rheingold.  Wagner Fan
Its the Opera D'Oro pressing.  At least it is supposed to be. I
suppose I'll find out.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Kruass has AMAZING singers. If I were to buy a set based on singers
only, this is the BEST of all of them in my opinion. The sonics,
however, are early '50's and on a much lower level. So if sonics is
important to the OP, this will be a disappointment. If the OP's gift
will not be a first version, then this could be appropriate. SOmeone
who knows Wagner would know this set.

ALl the other versions have some sorts of tradeoffs. Solti is probably
the best all around in terms of singers and sound. However, the OP
could also consider buying each individual opera separately. This way,
he could mix and match and come up trumps all the way around. Anyway,
it's a thought.
Terry
2008-05-28 14:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wagner Fan
Post by Terry
(in article
Post by B***@gmail.com
Hi friends,
A trouble to me. An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him. Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?
(What kills me is that he knows opera...)
Tonnes of thanks.
Blessings
SF
Get him the Janowski, on RCA. I've taken a long time over it, and have
listened to a lot of sets, and have come to the conclusion that this is the
best set of all, when all factors are taken into account.
--
Cheers!
Terry
Not a good idea for a first timer since he will have to pay extra for the
libretti - and also put up with an almost but not quite Brunnhilde (not a
good idea) Wagner Fan
It's the set with the smallest number of serious faults, and one would
presume the old gentleman would already have a libretto. Anyway, you can buy
the old fellow a complete libretto in a good translation and scholarly notes
for just $18, and enhance the gift.
--
Cheers!

Terry
wkasimer
2008-05-28 14:06:40 UTC
Permalink
On May 28, 10:00 am, Terry <***@clown.invalid> wrote:

re Janowski -
Post by Terry
It's the set with the smallest number of serious faults,
One could make a similar argument for Barenboim's set on Teldec. That
said, I think that Janowski's Rheingold and Siegfried are among the
best on record, but Altemeyer's lightness of voice is more of an issue
in the other two opera.

Bill
Niklas N
2008-05-28 14:12:59 UTC
Permalink
I second the Janowski box on RCA

/Niklas
Post by Terry
(in article
Post by B***@gmail.com
Hi friends,
A trouble to me. An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him. Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?
(What kills me is that he knows opera...)
Tonnes of thanks.
Blessings
SF
Get him the Janowski, on RCA. I've taken a long time over it, and have
listened to a lot of sets, and have come to the conclusion that this is the
best set of all, when all factors are taken into account.
--
Cheers!
Terry
Wagner Fan
2008-05-28 14:25:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Niklas N
I second the Janowski box on RCA
/Niklas
Post by Terry
(in article
Post by B***@gmail.com
Hi friends,
A trouble to me. An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him. Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?
(What kills me is that he knows opera...)
Tonnes of thanks.
Blessings
SF
Get him the Janowski, on RCA. I've taken a long time over it, and have
listened to a lot of sets, and have come to the conclusion that this is the
best set of all, when all factors are taken into account.
--
Cheers!
Terry
Again I keep going back to what would impress a first timer and I think the
utter lack of any kind of special effects or sonic balances in the very
studio-ish Janowski set vs. the special effects (18 anvils and the whole
bit) in the Solti set would again tilt me towards that Solti set as
impressing a novice. Wagner fan
Jeterbug
2008-05-28 16:23:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by B***@gmail.com
Hi friends,
A trouble to me. �An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him. �Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?
(What kills me is that he knows opera...)
Tonnes of thanks.
Blessings
SF
I do think the DVd Barenboim Ring combines some modern elements with
traditional elements..not a crazy production..but beautifully done..I
highly recommend it to you.....CH
Paul Goodman
2008-05-29 03:11:08 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:23:30 -0700 (PDT), Jeterbug
Post by Jeterbug
I do think the DVd Barenboim Ring combines some modern elements with
traditional elements..not a crazy production..but beautifully done..I
highly recommend it to you.....CH
Charles, I do agree with you on the Barenboim Ring DVD. It does have
some unorthodox moments (mostly the way they are dressed), but the
production as a whole is good and the singing and orchestra is
fabulous.
--
Paul Goodman
***@qtm.net
wkasimer
2008-05-29 13:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Charles, I do agree with you on the Barenboim Ring DVD.  It does have
some unorthodox moments (mostly the way they are dressed), but the
production as a whole is good and the singing and orchestra is
fabulous.
I haven't seen the DVD's, but this is also available as an audio-only
version, quite inexpensively, in excellent sound.

Bill
d***@aol.com
2008-05-29 23:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by wkasimer
Post by Paul Goodman
Charles, I do agree with you on the Barenboim Ring DVD. It does have
some unorthodox moments (mostly the way they are dressed), but the
production as a whole is good and the singing and orchestra is
fabulous.
I haven't seen the DVD's, but this is also available as an audio-only
version, quite inexpensively, in excellent sound.
Bill
Bill, what's your reaction to Barenboim's contribution to this set?
(I'm a die-hard if frequently disappointed Barenboim fan.)

-david gable
wkasimer
2008-05-30 15:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Bill, what's your reaction to Barenboim's contribution to this set?
David, I think that I'd like to have a listen to some of the set
before answering - I haven't heard it in several years. For a variety
of reasons, my Wagnerian listening over the past few years has been
rather limited...

Bill
d***@aol.com
2008-05-30 20:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by wkasimer
For a variety
of reasons, my Wagnerian listening over the past few years has been
rather limited...
Mine, too. I'm not contemplating rushing out to pick up Barenboim,
but I'll be curious to hear your reaction the next time you listen.

-david gable
Mike Scott Rohan
2008-05-28 19:50:55 UTC
Permalink
The message
Post by B***@gmail.com
Hi friends,
A trouble to me. An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him. Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?
(What kills me is that he knows opera...)
Tonnes of thanks.
Blessings
SF
Zdrasvuite!

Fascinating range of responses this provoked. My first thought, though,
was how unfair it is to "order" someone who isn't a Wagner fan to choose
a Ring recording for someone else!

Some people will recommend one version, some another -- which is
probably healthy, but can be maddening for anyone who doesn't know the
field. As a critic, I'd have to admit that there *is* no absolute first
choice, as such. So I felt that rather than just recommend something
down flat, I'd try to sketch in the main contenders you're likely to be
offered -- my opinion, of course, but a reasonably informed and fairly
impartial one. Most of these should be readily available wherever you're
buying. There are several more really bargain-price Ring recordings, but
while some of these aren't at all bad, they wouldn't be a first choice
for someone who appreciates a really superior performance. Neither
should most so-called "historic" versions on smaller labels, even recent
ones. I'm assuming you want CDs rather than DVD video versions, so I
won't cover these unless asked; they are none of them ideal, either.

The nearest to a perfect Ring, I think, is the very first ever released
-- Solti's, on Decca/London, with superb voices, especially in the three
great roles of Wotan, Brunnhilde and Siegfried, but with scarcely a weak
link in the lesser roles; splendid recording (1950s to 1960s, but ahead
of its time); and dynamic, dramatic conducting; yet if you read the
discussions in some groups and even serious periodicals, you'd find
plenty of people damning it as the worst of the worst. For them it's
"too Technicolour", "brash" or even "vulgar" -- all of which can also
translate as "too popular"!

Many of the Solti-haters have tended to praise Furtwangler's live
recording from La Scala, not that much older, but with a dismal
orchestra, many singers mediocre or in poor voice, drastic cuts and a
recording so murky it's a strain to listen to -- figure that one out!
There is some striking conducting in there -- if you know what to listen
for. That has become slightly less fashionable lately, and the current
fashion is to recommend the Keilberth recording on Testament, recorded
live at Bayreuth (Wagner's own opera house and festival) by the Decca
company slightly before the Solti, with many of the same singers, but
never released -- due to contractual clashes, and not, despite some
conspiracy theorists, wicked machinations by Solti! It's undoubtedly
good, but it doesn't have the richness and spectacle of the Solti, and
some very strange stage noises, including the roaring of Bayreuth's
famous fire projectors throughout one entire scene.

Choice almost always does come down to personal taste, whether it's the
performance as a whole or its lead singers -- as in this thread, for
example, where one person hears Hildegarde Behrens' Brunnhilde as too
unsteady, while for another she's definitive. Personally I'd say the
truth is somewhere between the two -- she's very good, a bit stretched
vocally, indeed, but to make up for that unusually feminine and
vulnerable, and a heart-breaking actress; still not quite the best,
though. Likewise for that person Levine's, which features her, is the
best modern CD recording, but others wouldn't agree. It is very good,
though, with a great rich velvety recording and good orchestral playing.
Levine's conducting, however, is too slow and weighty, even turgid, for
many tastes, mine included, and though his singers sound pleasant,
they're not always as characterful as their rivals. James Morris is much
smoother-voiced than Solti's Hans Hotter, but he doesn't have half the
commanding intensity; and Reiner Goldberg, though he has the voice,
doesn't really do much with the character. There is only one set even
slower than Levine's, and that's the extraordinary English-language live
recording conducted by Sir Reginald Goodall on Chandos -- he handles the
pacing much better, though. For anyone who speaks English better than
German, the translated version really brings the drama to life, and its
main singers can stand comparison with almost any others; but the
orchestra is good rather than top-rate, and though many are enthusiastic
about it, it's better as an alternative.

Faster, lighter versions have their own problems. One of the most famous
is Bohm's, another Bayreuth festival live recording, again with many of
Solti's stars; but while this has its moments, it can sound rather
rushed and coarse, and its Wotan, Theo Adam, has a wobbly, gritty, voice
(he sounded much better live!). Boulez's recording is famous because it
was the first Ring to be televised, but Boulez is just too fast and
careless over detail -- most of which he doesn't seem aware of; "glib"
is the best label I can come up with. While Gwyneth Jones's Brunnhilde
is a great performance, she also sounds rather unsteady at times; and
while Donald McIntyre's Wotan is grimly impressive, it lacks depth of
character -- and Manfred Jung's Siegfried, despite much help from the
recording engineers, is plain inadequate! The first recent East German
recording, by Marek Janowski with the great Dresden orchestra, has a lot
going for it, a lively performance and open sound; but it isn't as
atmospheric as the best -- you're always very aware it's in a studio and
the effects (a vital part of the score) are perfunctory -- some of the
lesser singers are dreadful, and while many of the main ones are quite
starry, they're not in the same rank as Solti's. Jeanne Altmeyer isn't a
good enough actor as Brunnhilde, and Wotan is Theo Adam again, much
older and even drier-voiced. Bernard Haitink's poetically conducted
version would have been a very strong contender, but it's a prime
example of how one singer can cripple an entire recording -- Eva
Marton's disastrously squally Brunnhilde. The best of the "lighter"
approach is probably Wolfgang Sawallisch's from Munich, with some of the
same main singers as Levine but good alternatives in the lesser roles.
This was the soundtrack of a video recording, though, and is full of
bumps and thumps from the stage, very annoying at times. It may or may
not be available where you are.

A few years after Solti, DG recorded the second complete Ring with the
other conducting giant of the day, von Karajan. This is often sneered at
for its rather smooth and "prettified" orchestral sound, but in fact
it's quite a powerful performance as well as a beautiful one -- and a
bit of deliberate beauty does no harm amid all the Teutonic darkness!
Unfortunately Karajan usually preferred younger, lighter voices, some of
which don't come through well. That was chiefly why he often didn't cast
the same singers from opera to opera, so in all the main roles you have
two, of which one is usually not so good. Helga Dernesch's Brunnhilde is
underrated IMHO, probably the best compromise between vocal power and
femininity on any set (she looked stunning, too) but that doesn't make
up for Jess Thomas's barely audible Siegfried; Helge Brilioth is better.

Another live Bayreuth version is Daniel Barenboim's, like Sawallisch's
the soundtrack of a video version (Levine's video was a separate
recording). Barenboim has excellent singers, especially in the main
roles, although Anne Evans' very feminine Brunnhilde is on the light
side; Sir John Tomlinson's roguish, swashbuckling Wotan really demands
to be seen, but Siegfried Jerusalem's Siegfried, fine-looking as he was,
is made so obnoxious in this production he's better heard! Barenboim's
conducting, while not to everyone's taste, is rich and dramatic enough
to catch the imagination nearly as well as Solti's. This is probably the
best "modern" version -- if, once again, you can stand the stage noise,
which includes a rattling travelator in the Valkyries' scene.

But it really does depend on what you mean by "modern". The most recent
-- and very cheap -- is another soundtrack, by Zagroszek on Naxos -- but
I wouldn't touch it (or the DVD version either!). Neither it, nor
Barenboim, nor Levine, though, sound *that* much different from the
Solti. A bit clearer, a bit more spacious, but the Solti doesn't sound
like an "old" recording. With any reasonable sound system it can still
raise the roof, in Gotterdammerung especially. And its stars are, by and
large, better than even the best of the current crop -- even if Birgit
Nilsson is not exactly girlish-sounding when she needs to be! If it
really has to be digital sound, which I suspect is what's meant, Levine
or Barenboim are probably your best bet. But since we can't listen with
your ears, I'd suggest you find a store that will play them for you, and
the Solti as well (or a CD library,if such things survive where you
are). You may be pleasantly surprised. And since grandad is the one this
is for, maybe you could take him along too.

You might try the end of Rheingold, perhaps; the beginning of Walkure
Act II; the end of Act I Siegfried; and the final scene of
Gotterdammerung. Or perhaps others here can suggest alternatives? Hope
all that's of some help, anyhow!

Cheers,

Mike
--
***@asgard.zetnet.co.uk
Contributor & reviewer: Music Magazine; Opera Now; Classic CD; The
Times; International Opera Collector; Newsday; Gramophone; currently BBC
Music Magazine
Author, award-winning Winter of the World novels and others
Bert Coules
2008-05-28 20:20:00 UTC
Permalink
...but that doesn't make
up for Jess Thomas's barely audible Siegfried...
I think that's a little harsh. You could perhaps accuse him of
under-characterising, but I don't recall any moments where he disappeared
under the orchestra. Having said that, my most vivid memory of my first
hearing of the Karajan Siegfried was wondering what it would have been like
if Gerhard Stolze, the Mime, and Thomas had swapped roles.

Excellent rundown, though, Mike.

Today, grabbing a cassette to listen to in the car, I found myself with
highlights from the Swarowsky/Süddeutsche Philharmonie Siegfried: Gerald
McKee in the title role, Nadezda Kniplova as Brünnhilde, Herold Kraus as
Mime. Loud, fast and furious and an orchestra more enthusiastic than
polished, but good fun, especially for anyone who complained that Decca's
engineers put Solti's singers too far back in the mix. At times in the
Swarowsky cycle it sounds as though the cast are on top of you and the
orchestra's in the next room.

I've no idea if the whole thing, or indeed any bits of it, are currently
available; and I wouldn't recommend it as a first choice anyway, though
doesn't the original post's request for
a fantastic and more modern...
version suggest that the lucky gentleman already has at least one and
possibly more recordings?

Bert
Mike Scott Rohan
2008-05-29 11:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Coules
...but that doesn't make
up for Jess Thomas's barely audible Siegfried...
I think that's a little harsh. You could perhaps accuse him of
under-characterising, but I don't recall any moments where he disappeared
under the orchestra. Having said that, my most vivid memory of my first
hearing of the Karajan Siegfried was wondering what it would have been like
if Gerhard Stolze, the Mime, and Thomas had swapped roles.
Mine too! I do feel he was drowned by the orchestra during the Forging
Scene, more than once, and wasn't very impressive elsewhere -- which
surprised me a bit, as I heard him live several times and he was by no
means bad. Still, it's a while since I heard him, so I'll listen again
when I have a moment.
Post by Bert Coules
Excellent rundown, though, Mike.
Today, grabbing a cassette to listen to in the car, I found myself with
highlights from the Swarowsky/Süddeutsche Philharmonie Siegfried: Gerald
McKee in the title role, Nadezda Kniplova as Brünnhilde, Herold Kraus as
Mime. Loud, fast and furious and an orchestra more enthusiastic than
polished, but good fun, especially for anyone who complained that Decca's
engineers put Solti's singers too far back in the mix. At times in the
Swarowsky cycle it sounds as though the cast are on top of you and the
orchestra's in the next room.
I've no idea if the whole thing, or indeed any bits of it, are currently
available; and I wouldn't recommend it as a first choice anyway, though
doesn't the original post's request for
I keep the excerpts cassettes in the car too, to offset my wife's Jane
Austen audiobooks! I bought the CDs in the US, but I haven't seen the
set sold for some years now.
Post by Bert Coules
a fantastic and more modern...
version suggest that the lucky gentleman already has at least one and
possibly more recordings?
I wondered about that; but then I think he'd know something about more
modern ones. This sounds like a special treat -- for which, I think, the
Solti might be best.

Cheers,

Mike
--
***@asgard.zetnet.co.uk
Bert Coules
2008-05-29 13:40:47 UTC
Permalink
...surprised me a bit, as I heard him live several times
he was by no means bad.
I saw him as Walther and Tristan. His Walther was OK (beauty of tone was
never his strong point) but his Tristan was stunning - the best acted
interpretation I've ever seen. And his Parsifal on one of the
Knappertsbusch recordings just oozes intelligence. I do wish he'd tried
Mime - and Stolze surely had enough heft to sing the role in the studio.

Stolze's Mime for Karajan is a pale shadow of his performance for Solti, I
think. I know that that sort of extreme vocal characterisation tends to get
looked down on by some, but I'd much rather have that than blandness. There
are times in act one of the Karajan Siegfried where if I didn't know the
work well I'd have found it very hard to tell you which tenor was singing.
I keep the excerpts cassettes in the car too, to offset my wife's Jane
Austen audiobooks! I bought the CDs in the US, but I haven't seen the
set sold for some years now.
So presumably you'd agree that the performance is not at all bad? I have
the Götterdämmerung on LP, with its lovely cover picture of two hands
holding a broken biscuit and a little pile of crumbs at the bottom of the
frame. "That's the way the cookie crumbles..." explained the retailer, when
I bought it. I'd love to know what illustrations adorn the other three
sets.
...the Solti.
Oh, I agree. Surely still the best all-round recommendation.

Bert
Wagner Fan
2008-05-29 14:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Coules
...surprised me a bit, as I heard him live several times
he was by no means bad.
I saw him as Walther and Tristan. His Walther was OK (beauty of tone was
never his strong point) but his Tristan was stunning - the best acted
interpretation I've ever seen. And his Parsifal on one of the
Knappertsbusch recordings just oozes intelligence. I do wish he'd tried
Mime - and Stolze surely had enough heft to sing the role in the studio.
Stolze's Mime for Karajan is a pale shadow of his performance for Solti, I
think. I know that that sort of extreme vocal characterisation tends to
get looked down on by some, but I'd much rather have that than blandness.
There are times in act one of the Karajan Siegfried where if I didn't know
the work well I'd have found it very hard to tell you which tenor was
singing.
I keep the excerpts cassettes in the car too, to offset my wife's Jane
Austen audiobooks! I bought the CDs in the US, but I haven't seen the
set sold for some years now.
So presumably you'd agree that the performance is not at all bad? I have
the Götterdämmerung on LP, with its lovely cover picture of two hands
holding a broken biscuit and a little pile of crumbs at the bottom of the
frame. "That's the way the cookie crumbles..." explained the retailer,
when I bought it. I'd love to know what illustrations adorn the other
three sets.
...the Solti.
Oh, I agree. Surely still the best all-round recommendation.
Bert
Oh come now guys - do you really want the role of Siegfried, which calls for
a heroic tenor of strength and a brilliant top (among many other things)
sung by GERHARD STOLZE?????? Wagner Fan
Bert Coules
2008-05-29 15:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wagner Fan
Oh come now guys - do you really want the role of Siegfried, which calls
for a heroic tenor of strength and a brilliant top (among many other
things) sung by GERHARD STOLZE?????? Wagner Fan
In a recording, certainly. Why not? He had the notes and he was a fine
actor.

Bert
Wagner Fan
2008-05-29 16:08:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Coules
Post by Wagner Fan
Oh come now guys - do you really want the role of Siegfried, which calls
for a heroic tenor of strength and a brilliant top (among many other
things) sung by GERHARD STOLZE?????? Wagner Fan
In a recording, certainly. Why not? He had the notes and he was a fine
actor.
Bert
I really don't know what to say since the whole idea is, please excuse me,
preposterous- just because he has the notes doesn't mean he could sing
Siegfried in any kind of acceptable way (I have the notes to sing Siegfried
but that doesn't mean anything) - that thin, steely, vibratoless voice is,
for me, really an acquired taste. There is no brilliance to the voice at all
nor the amplitude to encompass the vocal range needed. One has only to
listen to Melchior, or Urlus for heroic voices. The voice is frankly such an
ugly one, he wouldn't even be able to be the kind of compromise that
Windgassen could succesfully be. I even have problems with his Mimi since,
as brilliantly characterized as it is, there is way too much Sprechstimme
and over-exaggeration - if Wagner has wanted his words declaimed he would
have annotated it that way and the character becomes exactly the sort of
wierd joke that Wagner expressly did not want. I found him best in roles
that called for excessive histrionics, perhaps his Herod or Oedipus der
Tyrann. Wagner Fan
Bert Coules
2008-05-29 16:23:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wagner Fan
I really don't know what to say since the whole idea is, please excuse me,
preposterous- just because he has the notes doesn't mean he could sing
Siegfried in any kind of acceptable way...
Clearly, acceptability is a very personal thing. All I can say is that I'd
have liked the chance to hear what he could do with the part. I don't find
him as ugly or as limited as you obviously do. And I'd rather, always, have
a Siegfried who played the role as if he knew what the words meant than
otherwise (and I've endured a lot of otherwise).
Post by Wagner Fan
I even have problems with his Mimi...
(Please insert your own Puccini joke here)

Bert
Wagner Fan
2008-05-29 16:45:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Coules
Post by Wagner Fan
I really don't know what to say since the whole idea is, please excuse
me, preposterous- just because he has the notes doesn't mean he could
sing Siegfried in any kind of acceptable way...
Clearly, acceptability is a very personal thing. All I can say is that
I'd have liked the chance to hear what he could do with the part. I don't
find him as ugly or as limited as you obviously do. And I'd rather,
always, have a Siegfried who played the role as if he knew what the words
meant than otherwise (and I've endured a lot of otherwise).
Post by Wagner Fan
I even have problems with his Mimi...
(Please insert your own Puccini joke here)
Bert
Actually that idea is awfully funny!!!!! I wouldn't mind seeing that
myself!!!! Wagner Fan
Richard Partridge
2008-05-29 14:07:03 UTC
Permalink
On 5/29/08 7:20 AM, Mike Scott Rohan, at
***@asgard.zetnet.co.uk, wrote the following:

[snip]
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
I keep the excerpts cassettes in the car too, to offset my wife's Jane
Austen audiobooks! I bought the CDs in the US, but I haven't seen the
set sold for some years now.
[snip]
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
Cheers,
Mike
I'd recommend you try those audio books! You can't do better.


Dick Partridge
Wagner Fan
2008-05-28 21:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The message
Post by B***@gmail.com
Hi friends,
A trouble to me. An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him. Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?
(What kills me is that he knows opera...)
Tonnes of thanks.
Blessings
SF
Zdrasvuite!
Fascinating range of responses this provoked. My first thought, though,
was how unfair it is to "order" someone who isn't a Wagner fan to choose
a Ring recording for someone else!
Some people will recommend one version, some another -- which is
probably healthy, but can be maddening for anyone who doesn't know the
field. As a critic, I'd have to admit that there *is* no absolute first
choice, as such. So I felt that rather than just recommend something
down flat, I'd try to sketch in the main contenders you're likely to be
offered -- my opinion, of course, but a reasonably informed and fairly
impartial one. Most of these should be readily available wherever you're
buying. There are several more really bargain-price Ring recordings, but
while some of these aren't at all bad, they wouldn't be a first choice
for someone who appreciates a really superior performance. Neither
should most so-called "historic" versions on smaller labels, even recent
ones. I'm assuming you want CDs rather than DVD video versions, so I
won't cover these unless asked; they are none of them ideal, either.
The nearest to a perfect Ring, I think, is the very first ever released
-- Solti's, on Decca/London, with superb voices, especially in the three
great roles of Wotan, Brunnhilde and Siegfried, but with scarcely a weak
link in the lesser roles; splendid recording (1950s to 1960s, but ahead
of its time); and dynamic, dramatic conducting; yet if you read the
discussions in some groups and even serious periodicals, you'd find
plenty of people damning it as the worst of the worst. For them it's
"too Technicolour", "brash" or even "vulgar" -- all of which can also
translate as "too popular"!
Many of the Solti-haters have tended to praise Furtwangler's live
recording from La Scala, not that much older, but with a dismal
orchestra, many singers mediocre or in poor voice, drastic cuts and a
recording so murky it's a strain to listen to -- figure that one out!
There is some striking conducting in there -- if you know what to listen
for. That has become slightly less fashionable lately, and the current
fashion is to recommend the Keilberth recording on Testament, recorded
live at Bayreuth (Wagner's own opera house and festival) by the Decca
company slightly before the Solti, with many of the same singers, but
never released -- due to contractual clashes, and not, despite some
conspiracy theorists, wicked machinations by Solti! It's undoubtedly
good, but it doesn't have the richness and spectacle of the Solti, and
some very strange stage noises, including the roaring of Bayreuth's
famous fire projectors throughout one entire scene.
Choice almost always does come down to personal taste, whether it's the
performance as a whole or its lead singers -- as in this thread, for
example, where one person hears Hildegarde Behrens' Brunnhilde as too
unsteady, while for another she's definitive. Personally I'd say the
truth is somewhere between the two -- she's very good, a bit stretched
vocally, indeed, but to make up for that unusually feminine and
vulnerable, and a heart-breaking actress; still not quite the best,
though. Likewise for that person Levine's, which features her, is the
best modern CD recording, but others wouldn't agree. It is very good,
though, with a great rich velvety recording and good orchestral playing.
Levine's conducting, however, is too slow and weighty, even turgid, for
many tastes, mine included, and though his singers sound pleasant,
they're not always as characterful as their rivals. James Morris is much
smoother-voiced than Solti's Hans Hotter, but he doesn't have half the
commanding intensity; and Reiner Goldberg, though he has the voice,
doesn't really do much with the character. There is only one set even
slower than Levine's, and that's the extraordinary English-language live
recording conducted by Sir Reginald Goodall on Chandos -- he handles the
pacing much better, though. For anyone who speaks English better than
German, the translated version really brings the drama to life, and its
main singers can stand comparison with almost any others; but the
orchestra is good rather than top-rate, and though many are enthusiastic
about it, it's better as an alternative.
Faster, lighter versions have their own problems. One of the most famous
is Bohm's, another Bayreuth festival live recording, again with many of
Solti's stars; but while this has its moments, it can sound rather
rushed and coarse, and its Wotan, Theo Adam, has a wobbly, gritty, voice
(he sounded much better live!). Boulez's recording is famous because it
was the first Ring to be televised, but Boulez is just too fast and
careless over detail -- most of which he doesn't seem aware of; "glib"
is the best label I can come up with. While Gwyneth Jones's Brunnhilde
is a great performance, she also sounds rather unsteady at times; and
while Donald McIntyre's Wotan is grimly impressive, it lacks depth of
character -- and Manfred Jung's Siegfried, despite much help from the
recording engineers, is plain inadequate! The first recent East German
recording, by Marek Janowski with the great Dresden orchestra, has a lot
going for it, a lively performance and open sound; but it isn't as
atmospheric as the best -- you're always very aware it's in a studio and
the effects (a vital part of the score) are perfunctory -- some of the
lesser singers are dreadful, and while many of the main ones are quite
starry, they're not in the same rank as Solti's. Jeanne Altmeyer isn't a
good enough actor as Brunnhilde, and Wotan is Theo Adam again, much
older and even drier-voiced. Bernard Haitink's poetically conducted
version would have been a very strong contender, but it's a prime
example of how one singer can cripple an entire recording -- Eva
Marton's disastrously squally Brunnhilde. The best of the "lighter"
approach is probably Wolfgang Sawallisch's from Munich, with some of the
same main singers as Levine but good alternatives in the lesser roles.
This was the soundtrack of a video recording, though, and is full of
bumps and thumps from the stage, very annoying at times. It may or may
not be available where you are.
A few years after Solti, DG recorded the second complete Ring with the
other conducting giant of the day, von Karajan. This is often sneered at
for its rather smooth and "prettified" orchestral sound, but in fact
it's quite a powerful performance as well as a beautiful one -- and a
bit of deliberate beauty does no harm amid all the Teutonic darkness!
Unfortunately Karajan usually preferred younger, lighter voices, some of
which don't come through well. That was chiefly why he often didn't cast
the same singers from opera to opera, so in all the main roles you have
two, of which one is usually not so good. Helga Dernesch's Brunnhilde is
underrated IMHO, probably the best compromise between vocal power and
femininity on any set (she looked stunning, too) but that doesn't make
up for Jess Thomas's barely audible Siegfried; Helge Brilioth is better.
Another live Bayreuth version is Daniel Barenboim's, like Sawallisch's
the soundtrack of a video version (Levine's video was a separate
recording). Barenboim has excellent singers, especially in the main
roles, although Anne Evans' very feminine Brunnhilde is on the light
side; Sir John Tomlinson's roguish, swashbuckling Wotan really demands
to be seen, but Siegfried Jerusalem's Siegfried, fine-looking as he was,
is made so obnoxious in this production he's better heard! Barenboim's
conducting, while not to everyone's taste, is rich and dramatic enough
to catch the imagination nearly as well as Solti's. This is probably the
best "modern" version -- if, once again, you can stand the stage noise,
which includes a rattling travelator in the Valkyries' scene.
But it really does depend on what you mean by "modern". The most recent
-- and very cheap -- is another soundtrack, by Zagroszek on Naxos -- but
I wouldn't touch it (or the DVD version either!). Neither it, nor
Barenboim, nor Levine, though, sound *that* much different from the
Solti. A bit clearer, a bit more spacious, but the Solti doesn't sound
like an "old" recording. With any reasonable sound system it can still
raise the roof, in Gotterdammerung especially. And its stars are, by and
large, better than even the best of the current crop -- even if Birgit
Nilsson is not exactly girlish-sounding when she needs to be! If it
really has to be digital sound, which I suspect is what's meant, Levine
or Barenboim are probably your best bet. But since we can't listen with
your ears, I'd suggest you find a store that will play them for you, and
the Solti as well (or a CD library,if such things survive where you
are). You may be pleasantly surprised. And since grandad is the one this
is for, maybe you could take him along too.
You might try the end of Rheingold, perhaps; the beginning of Walkure
Act II; the end of Act I Siegfried; and the final scene of
Gotterdammerung. Or perhaps others here can suggest alternatives? Hope
all that's of some help, anyhow!
Cheers,
Mike
I pretty well agree with Mike in his analysis (though I think much less of
Brilioth's Siegfried than he does). One of my favorite moments in Solti's
Ring and certainly a sound system test (when it was on LPs) is the
orchestral work right after Hagen's Watch - the winds play the descending
two note theme of Weh (or Hagen) a few times and then crunch - the whole
orchestra comes in - if that bass didn't test your system, nothing
would!!!!! One very special attribute of that Ring was the sound of the
Vienna Philharmonic in the now sadly gone Sofiensaal - it was really unique.
Although the sound effects used in that Ring are now poo-pooed, some of them
were just right. I'm thinking of Alberich's voice coming in and out of
Hagen's mind at the beginning of Gott Act 2, the famous 18 anvils, the sound
of Hunding locking his bedroom door in Walkure, and of course the collapse
of the Gibichung Hall at the end of the whole thing. Wagner Fan
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
--
Ralph
2008-05-28 22:49:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The nearest to a perfect Ring, I think, is the very first ever released
-- Solti's, on Decca/London, with superb voices, especially in the three
great roles of Wotan, Brunnhilde and Siegfried, but with scarcely a weak
link in the lesser roles; splendid recording (1950s to 1960s, but ahead
of its time); and dynamic, dramatic conducting; yet if you read the
discussions in some groups and even serious periodicals, you'd find
plenty of people damning it as the worst of the worst. For them it's
"too Technicolour", "brash" or even "vulgar" -- all of which can also
translate as "too popular"!
In general I wouldn't get into a debate about recording preferences, but
I find the Solti/Ring dismissals (as if every new historical release is
a rude wake up call, on what we were thinking when we so admired the
Solti/Ring in the past)particularly irksome. I don't care how prolific
the writer may be on other aspects of music, to me it is, more rarefied
then thou posturing, and if I may say so suspiciously immature. Of
course the Solti/Ring does not veto other interpretations and
performances, and by all means one should supplement it with other
recordings. But at one particular moment (a moment lasting a few years)
in time, a group of people got together, were seized with the highest
inspiration, and played like Gods.

Ralph
Wagner Fan
2008-05-28 23:33:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The nearest to a perfect Ring, I think, is the very first ever released
-- Solti's, on Decca/London, with superb voices, especially in the three
great roles of Wotan, Brunnhilde and Siegfried, but with scarcely a weak
link in the lesser roles; splendid recording (1950s to 1960s, but ahead
of its time); and dynamic, dramatic conducting; yet if you read the
discussions in some groups and even serious periodicals, you'd find
plenty of people damning it as the worst of the worst. For them it's
"too Technicolour", "brash" or even "vulgar" -- all of which can also
translate as "too popular"!
In general I wouldn't get into a debate about recording preferences, but I
find the Solti/Ring dismissals (as if every new historical release is a
rude wake up call, on what we were thinking when we so admired the
Solti/Ring in the past)particularly irksome. I don't care how prolific the
writer may be on other aspects of music, to me it is, more rarefied then
thou posturing, and if I may say so suspiciously immature. Of course the
Solti/Ring does not veto other interpretations and performances, and by
all means one should supplement it with other recordings. But at one
particular moment (a moment lasting a few years) in time, a group of
people got together, were seized with the highest inspiration, and played
like Gods.
Ralph
I think you may have a point - that Solti Ring was not just another studio
recording but was an inspired project for Culshaw, the other engineers and
the orchestra. The later studio recordings sound like just that - studio
recordings and that "spark" is not there. There is something very special
about that Solti Ring and its not just nostalgia. For me, the
Gotterdammerung is one of the handful of truly great operatic recordings.
Wagner Fan
d***@hotmail.com
2008-05-29 21:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Speaking of the Solti, a new remastering of Rheingold from that cycle
is being released next month. It will be interesting to see how the
sonics compare with previous releases.

David
Post by Wagner Fan
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The nearest to a perfect Ring, I think, is the very first ever released
-- Solti's, on Decca/London, with superb voices, especially in the three
great roles of Wotan, Brunnhilde and Siegfried, but with scarcely a weak
link in the lesser roles; splendid recording (1950s to 1960s, but ahead
of its time); and dynamic, dramatic conducting; yet if you read the
discussions in some groups and even serious periodicals, you'd find
plenty of people damning it as the worst of the worst. For them it's
"too Technicolour", "brash" or even "vulgar" -- all of which can also
translate as "too popular"!
In general I wouldn't get into a debate about recording preferences, but I
find the Solti/Ring dismissals (as if every new historical release is a
rude wake up call, on what we were thinking when we so admired the
Solti/Ring in the past)particularly irksome. I don't care how prolific the
writer may be on other aspects of music, to me it is, more rarefied then
thou posturing, and if I may say so suspiciously immature. Of course the
Solti/Ring does not veto other interpretations and performances, and by
all means one should supplement it with other recordings. But at one
particular moment (a moment lasting a few years) in time, a group of
people got together, were seized with the highest inspiration, and played
like Gods.
Ralph
I think you may have a point - that Solti Ring was not just another studio
recording but was an inspired project for Culshaw, the other engineers and
the orchestra.  The later studio recordings sound like just that - studio
recordings and that "spark" is not there. There is something very special
about that Solti Ring and its not just nostalgia. For me, the
Gotterdammerung is one of the handful of truly great operatic recordings.
Wagner Fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Richard Partridge
2008-05-29 13:48:13 UTC
Permalink
On 5/28/08 3:50 PM, Mike Scott Rohan, at
***@asgard.zetnet.co.uk, wrote the following:

[snip]
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
You might try the end of Rheingold, perhaps; the beginning of Walkure
Act II; the end of Act I Siegfried; and the final scene of
Gotterdammerung. Or perhaps others here can suggest alternatives? Hope
all that's of some help, anyhow!
Cheers,
Mike
I'd say those are well chosen! It's hard to leave out so many beautiful
passages, but if time is limited you have to. The only change I would make
is I would put the end of Walkure -- the Magic Fire -- ahead of the
sword-forging in Siegfried.


Dick Partridge
gggg gggg
2023-02-04 00:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by B***@gmail.com
Hi friends,
A trouble to me. An opera-fan old gentleman is going to have his
birthday celebration, I was "ordered" to look for a fantastic and more
modern "Der Ring des Nibelungen" CDs for him. Ah, 13+ hours music +
singing, I got no clue, can someone help?
(What kills me is that he knows opera...)
Tonnes of thanks.
Blessings
SF
(Upcoming radio program):

https://www.wfmt.com/2023/02/05/the-furtwangler-rai-ring-cycle-1

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