Leimotifs

[j***@adm.monash.edu.au]

Thanks to everyone for your recent response to my question regarding
the 1st act of Siegfried, however I now have a different question,
regarding leitmotifs.

I have a copy of the Stewart Spencer/Barry Millington book, which I
use whilst listening/watching The Ring. Although I can read music, I
am hopeless at singing printed music (or "hearing" it in my head), and
many of the 67 leitmotifs in the book are not named. I have searched
the chat room for past posts on the subject (and many thanks to
Derrick Everitt for a great summary in 2002, which I found very
informative), however I am wondering if there is any way of finding
whether the remaining leitmotifs have been named subsequently - or by
some-one else? Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to
listen to the leitmotifs?

Thanks,

Jill

[A.C. Douglas]

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
I have a copy of the Stewart Spencer/Barry Millington book, which I
use whilst listening/watching The Ring. Although I can read music, I
am hopeless at singing printed music (or "hearing" it in my head), and
many of the 67 leitmotifs in the book are not named. I have searched
the chat room for past posts on the subject (and many thanks to
Derrick Everitt for a great summary in 2002, which I found very
informative), however I am wondering if there is any way of finding
whether the remaining leitmotifs have been named subsequently - or by
some-one else? Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to
listen to the leitmotifs?

http://allenbdunningmd.com/RingThemes.htm

---
ACD
http://www.soundsandfury.com/

[Mike Scott Rohan]

The message

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
Thanks to everyone for your recent response to my question regarding
the 1st act of Siegfried, however I now have a different question,
regarding leitmotifs.
I have a copy of the Stewart Spencer/Barry Millington book, which I
use whilst listening/watching The Ring. Although I can read music, I
am hopeless at singing printed music (or "hearing" it in my head), and
many of the 67 leitmotifs in the book are not named. I have searched
the chat room for past posts on the subject (and many thanks to
Derrick Everitt for a great summary in 2002, which I found very
informative), however I am wondering if there is any way of finding
whether the remaining leitmotifs have been named subsequently - or by
some-one else? Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to
listen to the leitmotifs?
Thanks,
Jill

As well as the site ACD suggests, there are guides on CD -- in
particular Deryck Cooke's superb Decca/London companion set to the Solti
Ring, if you can find it. A much shorter and occasionally
unintentionally comical one accompanies Pearl's transfer of the HMV
pre-war "partial Ring".

Cooke is more than a listing, though; he explains and demonstrates very
lucidly, with illustrations from Solti and the VPO, how the leitmotifs
are not single self-contained "calling card" themes, but constantly
changing, mingling and evolving in constant flux. That makes the value
of naming any of them uncertain, since what's being named is a rather
arbitrary slice of an ongoing process. It was not something Wagner felt
necessary, but was pretty much the creation of literal-minded acolytes
who liked having things cut and dried, and didn't really understand the
evolutionary process.

He certainly is not responsible for the names themselves, which actually
differ very widely between commentators, and in many cases, even common
ones, misrepresent the musical or dramatic identity of the theme. Does
the sword motif represent the actual sword, for example, or the idea and
purpose of the sword? And there is the famous discussion over what's
often called the Renunciation of Love motif, which has spread to this
group -- if that's what it represents, why does Siegmund sing it as he
draws Notung from the tree -- if anything, a triumphant affirmation of
love? There is a curious appropriateness to it, but, as I suggested in
the discussion, it isn't expressed in that title and may not be so
easily summed up in a few words. But find Cooke; he'll tell you more
than anyone here can!

Cheers,

Mike

[Richard Partridge]

On 4/2/08 7:14 AM, Mike Scott Rohan, at
***@asgard.zetnet.co.uk, wrote the following:

[snip]

Post by Mike Scott Rohan
As well as the site ACD suggests, there are guides on CD -- in
particular Deryck Cooke's superb Decca/London companion set to the Solti
Ring, if you can find it. A much shorter and occasionally
unintentionally comical one accompanies Pearl's transfer of the HMV
pre-war "partial Ring".
Cooke is more than a listing, though; he explains and demonstrates very
lucidly, with illustrations from Solti and the VPO, how the leitmotifs
are not single self-contained "calling card" themes, but constantly
changing, mingling and evolving in constant flux. That makes the value
of naming any of them uncertain, since what's being named is a rather
arbitrary slice of an ongoing process. It was not something Wagner felt
necessary, but was pretty much the creation of literal-minded acolytes
who liked having things cut and dried, and didn't really understand the
evolutionary process.
He certainly is not responsible for the names themselves, which actually
differ very widely between commentators, and in many cases, even common
ones, misrepresent the musical or dramatic identity of the theme. Does
the sword motif represent the actual sword, for example, or the idea and
purpose of the sword? And there is the famous discussion over what's
often called the Renunciation of Love motif, which has spread to this
group -- if that's what it represents, why does Siegmund sing it as he
draws Notung from the tree -- if anything, a triumphant affirmation of
love? There is a curious appropriateness to it, but, as I suggested in
the discussion, it isn't expressed in that title and may not be so
easily summed up in a few words. But find Cooke; he'll tell you more
than anyone here can!
Cheers,
Mike

That's a very interesting discussion of the motifs. It shows the difficulty
of assigning neat labels to them.

I don't remember the "Renunciation of Love" theme at the end of Act I of
"Die Walküre;" I thought it appeared for the first time in Act III in
Sieglinde's "thank you" to Brünnhilde. I'll listen for it the next time I
play it.


Dick Partridge

[Richard Loeb]

Post by Richard Partridge
On 4/2/08 7:14 AM, Mike Scott Rohan, at
[snip]

Post by Mike Scott Rohan
As well as the site ACD suggests, there are guides on CD -- in
particular Deryck Cooke's superb Decca/London companion set to the Solti
Ring, if you can find it. A much shorter and occasionally
unintentionally comical one accompanies Pearl's transfer of the HMV
pre-war "partial Ring".
Cooke is more than a listing, though; he explains and demonstrates very
lucidly, with illustrations from Solti and the VPO, how the leitmotifs
are not single self-contained "calling card" themes, but constantly
changing, mingling and evolving in constant flux. That makes the value
of naming any of them uncertain, since what's being named is a rather
arbitrary slice of an ongoing process. It was not something Wagner felt
necessary, but was pretty much the creation of literal-minded acolytes
who liked having things cut and dried, and didn't really understand the
evolutionary process.
He certainly is not responsible for the names themselves, which actually
differ very widely between commentators, and in many cases, even common
ones, misrepresent the musical or dramatic identity of the theme. Does
the sword motif represent the actual sword, for example, or the idea and
purpose of the sword? And there is the famous discussion over what's
often called the Renunciation of Love motif, which has spread to this
group -- if that's what it represents, why does Siegmund sing it as he
draws Notung from the tree -- if anything, a triumphant affirmation of
love? There is a curious appropriateness to it, but, as I suggested in
the discussion, it isn't expressed in that title and may not be so
easily summed up in a few words. But find Cooke; he'll tell you more
than anyone here can!
Cheers,
Mike

That's a very interesting discussion of the motifs. It shows the difficulty
of assigning neat labels to them.
I don't remember the "Renunciation of Love" theme at the end of Act I of
"Die Walküre;" I thought it appeared for the first time in Act III in
Sieglinde's "thank you" to Brünnhilde. I'll listen for it the next time I
play it.
Dick Partridge

It occurs just before Siegmund pulls out the sword - he sings the melody.
Richard

[Derrick Everett]

<snip>

Post by Richard Loeb

Post by Richard Partridge
That's a very interesting discussion of the motifs. It shows the
difficulty of assigning neat labels to them.
I don't remember the "Renunciation of Love" theme at the end of Act I
of "Die Walküre;" I thought it appeared for the first time in Act III
in Sieglinde's "thank you" to Brünnhilde. I'll listen for it the next
time I play it.

It occurs just before Siegmund pulls out the sword - he sings the melody.

Which leads one to be sceptical about the suitability of the name.
Siegfried is not renouncing love or anything else.

[Derrick Everett]

Post by Derrick Everett
<snip>

Post by Richard Loeb

Post by Richard Partridge
That's a very interesting discussion of the motifs. It shows the
difficulty of assigning neat labels to them.
I don't remember the "Renunciation of Love" theme at the end of Act I
of "Die Walküre;" I thought it appeared for the first time in Act III
in Sieglinde's "thank you" to Brünnhilde. I'll listen for it the next
time I play it.

It occurs just before Siegmund pulls out the sword - he sings the melody.

Which leads one to be sceptical about the suitability of the name.
Siegfried is not renouncing love or anything else.

Sieg *mund*

[Richard Partridge]

Post by Derrick Everett

Post by Derrick Everett
<snip>

Post by Richard Loeb

Post by Richard Partridge
That's a very interesting discussion of the motifs. It shows the
difficulty of assigning neat labels to them.
I don't remember the "Renunciation of Love" theme at the end of Act I
of "Die Walküre;" I thought it appeared for the first time in Act III
in Sieglinde's "thank you" to Brünnhilde. I'll listen for it the next
time I play it.

It occurs just before Siegmund pulls out the sword - he sings the melody.

Which leads one to be sceptical about the suitability of the name.
Siegfried is not renouncing love or anything else.

Sieg *mund*

I was thoroughly confused here. I had the "Renunciation of Love" theme
mixed up with the "Redemption Through Love" theme, when Sieglinde sings, "Du
hehrstes Wunder!" The "Renunciation of Love" theme is clear enough, just
where Richard Loeb indicated.


Dick Partridge

[Johnno]

I was thoroughly confused here.  I had the "Renunciation of Love" theme
mixed up with the "Redemption Through Love" theme, when Sieglinde sings, "Du
hehrstes Wunder!"  

And Sabor calls it "Assurance". Just shows we need to take these
commentators just as a guide. It's better to wait and allow that
great moment to lift our hearts, and not bother too much about finding
a name for it. I'm more concerned about whether the Sieglinde can
sing it or not.

J

[A.C. Douglas]

Post by Derrick Everett
<snip>

Post by Richard Loeb

Post by Richard Partridge
That's a very interesting discussion of the motifs. It shows the
difficulty of assigning neat labels to them.
I don't remember the "Renunciation of Love" theme at the end of Act I
of "Die Walküre;" I thought it appeared for the first time in Act III
in Sieglinde's "thank you" to Brünnhilde. I'll listen for it the next
time I play it.

It occurs just before Siegmund pulls out the sword - he sings the melody.

Which leads one to be sceptical about the suitability of the name.
Siegfried [sic] is not renouncing love or anything else.

That moment is, I think, one of Wagner's most brilliant strokes in the use of
leitmotiv. Just at the moment of Siegmund's triumph, the orchestra (here
acting as Greek chorus) comments on that moment with tragic irony as if to
say, "Have you forgotten Alberich's world-encompassing primal curse [i.e.,
his renunciation of love]? Siegmund may extract the sword left for him by
Wotan, but it will be no help to him, and be to no avail. His and
Sieglinde's love are doomed."

As I've said, a brilliant stroke on Wagner's part.

---
ACD
http://www.soundsandfury.com/

[Johnno]

Post by A.C. Douglas
That moment is, I think, one of Wagner's most brilliant strokes in the use of
leitmotiv.  Just at the moment of Siegmund's triumph, the orchestra (here
acting as Greek chorus) comments on that moment with tragic irony as if to
say, "Have you forgotten Alberich's world-encompassing primal curse [i.e.,
his renunciation of love]?  Siegmund may extract the sword left for him by
Wotan, but it will be no help to him, and be to no avail.  His and
Sieglinde's love are doomed."

Exactly, and Sabor calls the theme "Liebe-Tragik" and notes
"Siegmund's grasping of the sword is parallelled by Alberich's
grasping of the gold in Rheingold. Both actions promote disastrous
consequences, and both are endorsed by the Liebe-Tragik motif, each
time in C minor."

In "I Saw the World End", Cooke gets into a bit of a froth about this,
mainly because he refers to the motif as "Renunciation of Love", so of
course he struggles to see why Siegmund would use that motif.
Perhaps the confusion arises because we first hear the motif when it's
sung by Woglinde as a warning to Alberich, and she sings about
renouncing love.

J

[Richard Loeb]

Post by A.C. Douglas
That moment is, I think, one of Wagner's most brilliant strokes in the use of
leitmotiv. Just at the moment of Siegmund's triumph, the orchestra (here
acting as Greek chorus) comments on that moment with tragic irony as if to
say, "Have you forgotten Alberich's world-encompassing primal curse [i.e.,
his renunciation of love]? Siegmund may extract the sword left for him by
Wotan, but it will be no help to him, and be to no avail. His and
Sieglinde's love are doomed."

Exactly, and Sabor calls the theme "Liebe-Tragik" and notes
"Siegmund's grasping of the sword is parallelled by Alberich's
grasping of the gold in Rheingold. Both actions promote disastrous
consequences, and both are endorsed by the Liebe-Tragik motif, each
time in C minor."

In "I Saw the World End", Cooke gets into a bit of a froth about this,
mainly because he refers to the motif as "Renunciation of Love", so of
course he struggles to see why Siegmund would use that motif.
Perhaps the confusion arises because we first hear the motif when it's
sung by Woglinde as a warning to Alberich, and she sings about
renouncing love.

J

"Perhaps the confusion arises because we first hear the motif when it's
sung by Woglinde as a warning to Alberich, and she sings about
renouncing love."

Well, yes and it makes perfect sense to call it a renunciation of love
motive since that is exactly what Woglinde is telling us. Cooke's "froth" is
certainly understandable since I also have found other explanations of the
motives seeming inconsistancy when we hear it as Siegmund pulls out the
sword a bit of a stretch. Richard

[A***@msn.com]

Post by Johnno

Post by A.C. Douglas
That moment is, I think, one of Wagner's most brilliant strokes in the use of
leitmotiv. Just at the moment of Siegmund's triumph, the orchestra (here
acting as Greek chorus) comments on that moment with tragic irony as if to
say, "Have you forgotten Alberich's world-encompassing primal curse [i.e.,
his renunciation of love]? Siegmund may extract the sword left for him by
Wotan, but it will be no help to him, and be to no avail. His and
Sieglinde's love are doomed."

Exactly, and Sabor calls the theme "Liebe-Tragik" and notes
"Siegmund's grasping of the sword is parallelled by Alberich's
grasping of the gold in Rheingold.  Both actions promote disastrous
consequences, and both are endorsed by the Liebe-Tragik motif, each
time in C minor."
In "I Saw the World End", Cooke gets into a bit of a froth about this,
mainly because he refers to the motif as "Renunciation of Love", so of
course he struggles to see why Siegmund would use that motif.
Perhaps the confusion arises because we first hear the motif when it's
sung by Woglinde as a warning to Alberich, and she sings about
renouncing love.
J
"Perhaps the confusion arises because we first hear the motif when it's
sung by Woglinde as a warning to Alberich, and she sings about
renouncing love."
Well, yes and it makes perfect sense to call it a renunciation of love
motive since that is exactly what Woglinde is telling us. Cooke's "froth" is
certainly understandable since I also have found other explanations of the
motives seeming inconsistancy when we hear it as Siegmund pulls out the
sword a bit of a stretch.   Richard

This thread demonstrates quite well the problem with leitmotiv names.
As Derrick pointed out Wagner applied very few names of his own, but
regarding the "renunciation" motif in this case he called it
"liebesfluch" (love-curse; sorry if I reversed the i&e incorrectly?)
as pointed out by MonteStone and demonstrated in Wagner's score
sketches for Rheingold. Sabor's "liebe-tragik" was applied to a
related but different theme arising when Loge sings about "weibes
wonne & werth". Unfortunately only a musical notation of the theme
seems to ensure we're talking about the same motif.

Allen Dunning

[Derrick Everett]

Post by A.C. Douglas
That moment is, I think, one of Wagner's most brilliant strokes in the use of
leitmotiv. Just at the moment of Siegmund's triumph, the orchestra
(here acting as Greek chorus) comments on that moment with tragic
irony as if to say, "Have you forgotten Alberich's world-encompassing
primal curse [i.e., his renunciation of love]? Siegmund may extract
the sword left for him by Wotan, but it will be no help to him, and
be to no avail. His and Sieglinde's love are doomed."

Exactly, and Sabor calls the theme "Liebe-Tragik" and notes "Siegmund's
grasping of the sword is parallelled by Alberich's grasping of the gold
in Rheingold.  Both actions promote disastrous consequences, and both
are endorsed by the Liebe-Tragik motif, each time in C minor."
In "I Saw the World End", Cooke gets into a bit of a froth about this,
mainly because he refers to the motif as "Renunciation of Love", so of
course he struggles to see why Siegmund would use that motif. Perhaps
the confusion arises because we first hear the motif when it's sung by
Woglinde as a warning to Alberich, and she sings about renouncing love.
J
"Perhaps the confusion arises because we first hear the motif when it's
sung by Woglinde as a warning to Alberich, and she sings about
renouncing love."
Well, yes and it makes perfect sense to call it a renunciation of love
motive since that is exactly what Woglinde is telling us. Cooke's
"froth" is certainly understandable since I also have found other
explanations of the motives seeming inconsistancy when we hear it as
Siegmund pulls out the sword a bit of a stretch.   Richard

This thread demonstrates quite well the problem with leitmotiv names. As
Derrick pointed out Wagner applied very few names of his own, but
regarding the "renunciation" motif in this case he called it
"liebesfluch" (love-curse; sorry if I reversed the i&e incorrectly?) as
pointed out by MonteStone and demonstrated in Wagner's score sketches
for Rheingold. Sabor's "liebe-tragik" was applied to a related but
different theme arising when Loge sings about "weibes wonne & werth".
Unfortunately only a musical notation of the theme seems to ensure we're
talking about the same motif.

The Love-Curse motive used to cause me some confusion because, when people
talked about Alberich's curse, I wasn't sure whether they meant this
motive or the later one with which Alberich puts a curse on the ring.

Alberich makes two curses: in the Rhine, he not only renounces love but
also *curses* love (hence: Liebesfluchmotiv); after he has been dragged up
to the mountain heights and Wotan has taken his ring, Alberich puts a
curse on the ring. The first curse enables Alberich to gain the ring and
with the second curse he hopes to get it back.

Sabor's name for the motive he calls Liebe-Tragik is taken from a note
Wagner made in the margin of his unfinished essay "On the Feminine in the
Human", probably only a few hours before he died. It is appropriate to
this motive -- which had been overlooked by other collectors of leading
motives -- because it is heard in association with distress and love's
sorrow. Millington's example 7 is a variant of this leading motive, which
is usually heard as a descending major scale with a characteristic rhythm.

[Johnno]

 Sabor's "liebe-tragik" was applied to a

Post by A***@msn.com
related but different theme arising when Loge sings about "weibes
wonne & werth".  Unfortunately only a musical notation of the theme
seems to ensure we're talking about the same motif.

Well Sabor does identify the Liebe-Tragik motiv at that point, but if
you go back to p32 of Sabor's book on Rheingold, you will see that he
first notes the use of the theme in the orchestra when Alberich sings
"...seit ich dich Holdeste seh" and a bit later at "...lacht mir so
zierliches Lob." The first time the theme is really sung out, double
underlined, as it were, is later when Woglinde sings "Nur wer der
Minne Macht versagt..." (p40), which is about the renunciation of
love.

Problem is that, as you say, the theme is slightly different when Loge
sings "Weibes Wonne und Werth". Of course, Sabor's identification of
motifs can't be carved in stone, any more than the other systems of
identification. I like to use Sabor as just one guide, but the others
are useful too. (Plus I like to just put those books aside and
attend to the drama, without bothering about which motif is what.)

Nevertheless, the fact that Wagner uses that same melody, double-
underlined again, and in the same key, when Siegmund draws the sword
out of the tree, tells me that Wagner is drawing a strong parallel
between this and the seizing of the gold, and I find Sabor's
explanation as satisfactory as any I've read.

J

[A***@msn.com]

Post by Johnno
 Sabor's "liebe-tragik" was applied to a
Well Sabor does identify the Liebe-Tragik motiv at that point, but if
you go back to p32 of Sabor's book on Rheingold, you will see that he
first notes the use of the theme in the orchestra when Alberich sings
"...seit ich dich Holdeste seh" and a bit later at "...lacht mir so
zierliches Lob."  The first time the theme is really sung out, double
underlined, as it were, is later when Woglinde sings "Nur wer der
Minne Macht versagt..." (p40), which is about the renunciation of
love.

I posted a reply to the above, but I clicked on "reply to author",
which perhaps sent it directly to your email instead of the
newsgroup? If you received would you mind copying it and posting it,
or send it back to me and I can do that. Thanks.
Allen Dunning

[Johnno]

 I posted a reply to the above, but I clicked on "reply to author",
which perhaps sent it directly to your email instead of the
newsgroup?  If you received would you mind copying it and posting it,
or send it back to me and I can do that.  Thanks.
Allen Dunning

I'm sorry, Allen, but I don't think that email address works any more,
so your reply has probably disappeared into outer space.

John

[Derrick Everett]

Post by Johnno
Well Sabor does identify the Liebe-Tragik motiv at that point, but if
you go back to p32 of Sabor's book on Rheingold, you will see that he
first notes the use of the theme in the orchestra when Alberich sings
"...seit ich dich Holdeste seh" and a bit later at "...lacht mir so
zierliches Lob."

You are correct to note that Sabor identifies the motive at each of those
lines but I think it doubtful. Compare them to the two occurrences of
"... Weibes Wonne und Werth" in Loge's narration, later. All of these
phrases contain part of a descending major scale but the first (rising)
interval is different in each case. Loge's phrases have a different
rhythm from Alberich's phrases. Possibly related but not, I think, the
same motive.

Post by Johnno
The first time the theme is really sung out, double underlined, as it
were, is later when Woglinde sings "Nur wer der Minne Macht versagt..."
(p40), which is about the renunciation of love.

So another appropriate name for this motive is "Lovelessness", which I
think was given to it by Allen Dunning. It is motive 37 on Allen's list.

Post by Johnno
Problem is that, as you say, the theme is slightly different when Loge
sings "Weibes Wonne und Werth". Of course, Sabor's identification of
motifs can't be carved in stone, any more than the other systems of
identification. I like to use Sabor as just one guide, but the others
are useful too. (Plus I like to just put those books aside and attend
to the drama, without bothering about which motif is what.)

The version of Liebe-Tragik or Lovelessness that I think of as definitive,
is heard the first time Loge sings, "für Weibes Wonne und Werth!" (in the
Dover vocal score, on page 85). He sings almost the same words again but
to slightly different notes (page 86): "als Weibes Wonne und Werth?" The
first version is in F major and the second in A major. The latter is the
closest to the Renunciation motive ("Nur wer der Minne Macht entsagt ...")
from which I think Liebe-Tragik or Lovelessness derives.

[A***@msn.com]

Post by Derrick Everett

Post by Johnno
Well Sabor does identify the Liebe-Tragik motiv at that point, but if
you go back to p32 of Sabor's book on Rheingold, you will see that he
first notes the use of the theme in the orchestra when Alberich sings
"...seit ich dich Holdeste seh" and a bit later at "...lacht mir so
zierliches Lob."

You are correct to note that Sabor identifies the motive at each of those
lines but I think it doubtful.  Compare them to the two occurrences of
"... Weibes Wonne und Werth" in Loge's narration, later.  All of these
phrases contain part of a descending major scale but the first (rising)
interval is different in each case.  Loge's phrases have a different
rhythm from Alberich's phrases.  Possibly related but not, I think, the
same motive.

Post by Johnno
The first time the theme is really sung out, double underlined, as it
were, is later when Woglinde sings "Nur wer der Minne Macht versagt..."
(p40), which is about the renunciation of love.

So another appropriate name for this motive is "Lovelessness", which I
think was given to it by Allen Dunning.  It is motive 37 on Allen's list.

Post by Johnno
Problem is that, as you say, the theme is slightly different when Loge
sings "Weibes Wonne und Werth".   Of course, Sabor's identification of
motifs can't be carved in stone, any more than the other systems of
identification.  I like to use Sabor as just one guide, but the others
are useful too.   (Plus I like to just put those books aside and attend
to the drama, without bothering about which motif is what.)

The version of Liebe-Tragik or Lovelessness that I think of as definitive,
is heard the first time Loge sings, "für Weibes Wonne und Werth!" (in the
Dover vocal score, on page 85).  He sings almost the same words again but
to slightly different notes (page 86): "als Weibes Wonne und Werth?"  The
first version is in F major and the second in A major.  The latter is the
closest to the Renunciation motive ("Nur wer der Minne Macht entsagt ...")
from which I think Liebe-Tragik or Lovelessness derives.
--
Derrick Everett

Correct. In my initial reply to Johnno I referenced pg 34 of the
Dover Rheingold score for the two lines sung by Alberich next to which
Sabor placed his "Liebes-Tragik" label, but I said that Sabor was
musically completely wrong. I also noted that on pg 18 of Sabor's
Rheingold book Sabor wrote two different "Liebes-Tragik" motifs - a)
the six note theme starting on F that I did label "loveless" in my
RingThemes Chapter XXIV-XIII 'Renunciation', and b) Woglinde's "Nur
wer der Minne Macht entsagt", from which Sabor left off the initial
the three notes (Nur wer der). But, in his introductory 1st book of
that series, in the back of which his lists all the motifs (sic), he
didn't include (didn't recognize as primary?) the motif that Wagner
labeled 'liebesfluch', but most call the 'renunciation' motive. Also
I noted that Millington's book doesn't list the "Liebes-Tragik" motif
at all, which paradoxically occurs much more frequently than
'liebesfluch', especially in Gotterdammerung.

Derrick, I was intrigued by your posting about Wagner's margin
notation in his "On the feminine in the human" essay. Wagner has
seemed to me to try and distinguish something unique and 'special'
about woman, I'm not referring to sexuality, and this made me wonder
about the association of the motif with 'weibes wonne und werth'.
Having not read the unfinished essay, can you say anything more about
this?

Allen Dunning

[Derrick Everett]

<snip>

Post by Derrick Everett

Post by Johnno
The first time the theme is really sung out, double underlined, as it
were, is later when Woglinde sings "Nur wer der Minne Macht
versagt..." (p40), which is about the renunciation of love.

So another appropriate name for this motive is "Lovelessness", which I
think was given to it by Allen Dunning.  It is motive 37 on Allen's list.

On reading my words again, I can see that I was not very clear about this.
Sabor identifies at "Nur wer der Minne Macht entsagt" his 'Liebe-Tragik'
motive, which he also identified with Loge's "Weibes Wonne und Werth".
Although I consider these themes, or fragments of melodic line, as related
(the second could be derived from the first by variation), I do *not* think
that they are one and the same leading motive. We should see the question
in the wider context of a work in which all of the musical material can be
derived -- or evolves organically from -- simple musical ideas that Wagner
uses in the first scene of the opera. Sometimes I agree that it is not
easy to say whether there is a new motive or simply a variant of one that
we heard already; if it seems to be a deliberate reminiscence, then I
should distinguish a new motive; in this case it is doubtful that the
second of these themes would be heard as a reminiscence of the first.

The similarity of the Renunciation motive and the motive of Liebe-Tragikk
or Lovelessness only appears after omitting the first note or notes of
each theme, and identifying the part of each that begins with a descending
scale. Well, honestly, there are descending scales all over the place: the
Treaty motive associated with Wotan's spear and with all agreements, laws,
customs etc.; and the Twilight of the Gods motive, are both in essence
descending scales. In general, Wagner tends to use a descending scale for
anything related to distress; this is not a universal rule but it is often
the case, perhaps because Wagner felt that a descending scale was a
natural expression of distress. But in the latter case, the Twilight
motive is just an inversion of Erda's theme, which is a rising phrase
probably because Erda rises up out of the earth, and therefore its
inversion is a descending phrase, consistent with the fall of the gods.

[Derrick Everett]

Sometimes I agree that it is not easy to say whether there is a new
motive or simply a variant of one that we heard already; if it seems to
be a deliberate reminiscence, then I should *not* distinguish a new
motive; in this case it is doubtful that the second of these themes
would be heard as a reminiscence of the first.

[Derrick Everett]

Derrick, I was intrigued by your posting about Wagner's margin notation
in his "On the feminine in the human" essay. Wagner has seemed to me to
try and distinguish something unique and 'special' about woman, I'm not
referring to sexuality, and this made me wonder about the association of
the motif with 'weibes wonne und werth'. Having not read the unfinished
essay, can you say anything more about this?

The unfinished essay 'Ueber das Weibliche in Menschlichen' was included in
the volume of posthumous writings (those unpublished in Wagner's lifetime)
in SSD (vol XII, pages 343-345). There is an English translation by Ellis
in his Prose Works, volume VI, pages 333-337. The fragment mostly
consists of thoughts about monogamy and polygamy, with some
generalizations about the relations between the species that do not stand
up to closer examination. When Wagner says that male animals only stay
with the female as long as they need to protect her and her cubs, that is
only true of some species: in some cases (the cats for example) the male
does not stay around for long after mating, in other cases (for example in
birds) there is often a lasting bond between the partners.

Where the essay becomes interesting for me is just before it breaks off.
In the last completed paragraph -- against which the marginal note "Love -
Tragedy" appears -- Wagner refers to the story of his unwritten opera "The
Victors" (Die Sieger):

"It is here that the woman herself is raised above the natural sexual law,
to which, in the belief of the wisest of lawgivers, she remained so bound
that the Buddha himself thought needful to exclude her from the
possibility of sanctity. It is here a beautiful feature of the legend
that shows the Victoriously Perfect (der Siegreich-Vollendete) prompted to
admit the woman." (Tr. based on Ellis)

In the prose sketch for 'Die Sieger' of May 1856, the Buddha is persuaded
by his beloved disciple Ananda to admit a woman to his religious
community. In Buddhist tradition, Shakyamuni was originally of the opinion
(as Wagner stated in the paragraph cited above) that women were incapable
of the discipline required of a monk. In this legend, it is the outcast
girl Prakriti who becomes the first Buddhist nun. Wagner's sketch implies
that the moment of enlightenment in which the Buddha accepted Prakriti
removed the final obstacle to his perfect enlightenment: at the end of the
sketch, the Buddha leaves for the place in which that final step would be
taken.

I see very definite parallels between the final scene of 'Die Sieger' and
the Good Friday meadow scene of 'Parsifal'; with Kundry in place of
Prakriti (both are suffering the consequences of their mocking laughter in
an earlier life), and with Parsifal in place of Shakyamuni: the last load
is lifted from his head at Kundry's baptism (three emphatic cadences in B
major), after which he sees the meadow differently (15 bars of B major),
and then proceeds to the temple -- up to that time an exclusively male
domain -- taking with him Kundry.

Therefore I find it both interesting and appropriate that Wagner should
refer to the Buddha admitting the woman to his religious community, in the
last paragraph that Wagner wrote.

[Jeff Hackworth]

You left out this paragraph:

Love's loyalty: marriage; here dwells Man's power over Nature, and
divine we call it. 'Tis the fashioner of all noble races. Their
emergence from the backward lower races might easily be explained by
the prevalence of monogamy over polygamy; it is certain that the
noblest white race is monogamic at its first appearance in saga and
history, but marches toward its downfall through polygamy with the
races which it conquers. --- R Wagner







On 5 Apr 2008 13:59:21 +0200, Derrick Everett

Post by Derrick Everett

Derrick, I was intrigued by your posting about Wagner's margin notation
in his "On the feminine in the human" essay. Wagner has seemed to me to
try and distinguish something unique and 'special' about woman, I'm not
referring to sexuality, and this made me wonder about the association of
the motif with 'weibes wonne und werth'. Having not read the unfinished
essay, can you say anything more about this?

The unfinished essay 'Ueber das Weibliche in Menschlichen' was included in
the volume of posthumous writings (those unpublished in Wagner's lifetime)
in SSD (vol XII, pages 343-345). There is an English translation by Ellis
in his Prose Works, volume VI, pages 333-337. The fragment mostly
consists of thoughts about monogamy and polygamy, with some
generalizations about the relations between the species that do not stand
up to closer examination. When Wagner says that male animals only stay
with the female as long as they need to protect her and her cubs, that is
only true of some species: in some cases (the cats for example) the male
does not stay around for long after mating, in other cases (for example in
birds) there is often a lasting bond between the partners.
Where the essay becomes interesting for me is just before it breaks off.
In the last completed paragraph -- against which the marginal note "Love -
Tragedy" appears -- Wagner refers to the story of his unwritten opera "The
"It is here that the woman herself is raised above the natural sexual law,
to which, in the belief of the wisest of lawgivers, she remained so bound
that the Buddha himself thought needful to exclude her from the
possibility of sanctity. It is here a beautiful feature of the legend
that shows the Victoriously Perfect (der Siegreich-Vollendete) prompted to
admit the woman." (Tr. based on Ellis)
In the prose sketch for 'Die Sieger' of May 1856, the Buddha is persuaded
by his beloved disciple Ananda to admit a woman to his religious
community. In Buddhist tradition, Shakyamuni was originally of the opinion
(as Wagner stated in the paragraph cited above) that women were incapable
of the discipline required of a monk. In this legend, it is the outcast
girl Prakriti who becomes the first Buddhist nun. Wagner's sketch implies
that the moment of enlightenment in which the Buddha accepted Prakriti
removed the final obstacle to his perfect enlightenment: at the end of the
sketch, the Buddha leaves for the place in which that final step would be
taken.
I see very definite parallels between the final scene of 'Die Sieger' and
the Good Friday meadow scene of 'Parsifal'; with Kundry in place of
Prakriti (both are suffering the consequences of their mocking laughter in
an earlier life), and with Parsifal in place of Shakyamuni: the last load
is lifted from his head at Kundry's baptism (three emphatic cadences in B
major), after which he sees the meadow differently (15 bars of B major),
and then proceeds to the temple -- up to that time an exclusively male
domain -- taking with him Kundry.
Therefore I find it both interesting and appropriate that Wagner should
refer to the Buddha admitting the woman to his religious community, in the
last paragraph that Wagner wrote.

[Paul Danaher]

I came out of a performance of "La Bohème" and wondered if anybody can
think of a Wagner song that sticks with you after the show, with the
exception of the Prize Song? (I don't mean the occasional Leitmotif
either.)

[Mike Scott Rohan]

I came out of a performance of "La BohÚme" and wondered if anybody can
think of a Wagner song that sticks with you after the show, with the
exception of the Prize Song? (I don't mean the occasional Leitmotif
either.)

Only too many! There's no shortage, even if you just stick to fairly
discrete passages -- the sailor's choruses from Dutchman, the
Steersman's song, Senta's ballad, Tannhauser's song of praise, "Dich
teure Halle", the Pilgrim's Chorus, Lohengrin's swan songs, "Einsam in
Truben Tagen", "Das susse Lied", the Narration, the sailor's song from
Tristan (pinched that for a book once), Brangaene's song (helps my wife
is a passable low mezzo and tends to stick with that one for days), the
Liebestod, Sachs's cobbling song, Beckmesser's serenade, "Selig wie die
Sonne", "Gold'ne Apfel", Siegfried's forging songs, "Ewig war ich...",
Wintersturme, the Rhinemaidens' lament, the Woodbird, and more. Not so
much from Gotterdammerung, despite the Revenge Trio and the Act III
Rhinemaidens' song, but being a bass I almost always latch on to Hagen's
Watch, much to the distress of all around; likewise Gurnemanz's
narration in Parsifal, though not the Good Friday solo, oddly enough, or
Pogner's in Meistersinger -- they don't stick as well. I tend to end up
humming Klingsor instead. Real prize "earworm" is the Nightwatchman's
song, which I tend to go around with for days, occasionally following on
with the similar song from Nielsen's Maskarade.

Whereas from Boheme, much as I enjoy it -- "O soave fanciulla..",
Musetta's song (and Marcello's pickup of the melody), and that's about
it. Always feel the bass gets a bit shortchanged with "Vecchio zimarra";
it always feels superimposed -- "time for a showpiece" -- though
pleasant enough to sing.

Cheers,

Mike

[Herman van der Woude]

I came out of a performance of "La Bohème" and wondered if anybody can think
of a Wagner song that sticks with you after the show, with the exception of
the Prize Song? (I don't mean the occasional Leitmotif either.)

Well, you can call Puccini the Melody Maker, that's for sure. And I
mean this as a compliment, not as a remark of irony. When leaving the
opera after a Puccini opera, your head is filled with good tunes and a
very sad story (with one exception).

However, don't tell me you leave the theatre with an empty head after a
Wagner opera. I won't repeat what Mike already wrote, but can you
mention one of Wagner's operas without a good 'tune' which will hang
around in your head for days, if not weeks? I can't.

Cheers!

[Ralph]

Post by Paul Danaher
I came out of a performance of "La Bohème" and wondered if anybody can
think of a Wagner song that sticks with you after the show, with the
exception of the Prize Song? (I don't mean the occasional Leitmotif
either.)

It's been said about Bach's Mass in B Minor, that it is one of the
greatest musical compositions of all time, but you would be hard pressed
to sing any part of it. Didn't Webern (of astringent music fame) say
something like he knows he would have it made when the postal carrier
whistles his music at work.

Ralph

[Paul Danaher]

Post by Ralph

Post by Paul Danaher
I came out of a performance of "La Bohème" and wondered if anybody can
think of a Wagner song that sticks with you after the show, with the
exception of the Prize Song? (I don't mean the occasional Leitmotif
either.)

It's been said about Bach's Mass in B Minor, that it is one of the
greatest musical compositions of all time, but you would be hard pressed
to sing any part of it. Didn't Webern (of astringent music fame) say
something like he knows he would have it made when the postal carrier
whistles his music at work.
Ralph

Actually, I wouldn't be hard pressed at all, but I've probably sung it
(as a bass chorister) a couple of dozen times, which is more than I've
sung any Wagner. Webern was out of luck - his early works are very
difficult harmonically, and few people even these days get the musical
training necessary to whistle his tunes. I do find myself whistling
tunes from "Le Sacré du Printemps", and "Firebird", though.

[Mike Scott Rohan]

The message <m9uKj.64439$***@newsfe22.lga>
from Paul Danaher <***@watwinc.com> contains these words:

{snip}

Post by Paul Danaher
Actually, I wouldn't be hard pressed at all, but I've probably sung it
(as a bass chorister) a couple of dozen times, which is more than I've
sung any Wagner.

You haven't lived! The real murder, I found in choral days, was Berlioz.

Webern was out of luck - his early works are very

Post by Paul Danaher
difficult harmonically, and few people even these days get the musical
training necessary to whistle his tunes.

I would not call Webern's themes "tunes" per se, and I think the
problems in whistling them would be as much anatomical as technical!
I did try whistling some quarter-tone music a girlfriend played me once,
but the spirit rebelled. It's just not meant to be whistled.

I do find myself whistling

Post by Paul Danaher
tunes from "Le Sacré du Printemps", and "Firebird", though.

Not Kastchei's Dance, surely!

Cheers,

Mike

[Paul Danaher]

Post by Mike Scott Rohan
{snip}

Post by Paul Danaher
Actually, I wouldn't be hard pressed at all, but I've probably sung it
(as a bass chorister) a couple of dozen times, which is more than I've
sung any Wagner.

You haven't lived! The real murder, I found in choral days, was Berlioz.

I sang in three performances of the "Requiem", one recording of "Les
Troyens à Carthage" (yup, the Paris version).

Post by Mike Scott Rohan
Webern was out of luck - his early works are very

Post by Paul Danaher
difficult harmonically, and few people even these days get the musical
training necessary to whistle his tunes.

I would not call Webern's themes "tunes" per se, and I think the
problems in whistling them would be as much anatomical as technical!
I did try whistling some quarter-tone music a girlfriend played me once,
but the spirit rebelled. It's just not meant to be whistled.

There was a study a while back (30 years or so) where researchers
exposed children to 12-tone music and found they could whistle them.
Charles Ives and his family provide an example of microtone training.

Post by Mike Scott Rohan
I do find myself whistling

Post by Paul Danaher
tunes from "Le Sacré du Printemps", and "Firebird", though.

Not Kastchei's Dance, surely!

Sure - it's a terrific warm-up for Figaro's aria ...

[Derrick Everett]

Post by Johnno
The first time the theme is really sung out, double underlined, as it
were, is later when Woglinde sings "Nur wer der Minne Macht versagt..."
(p40), which is about the renunciation of love.

The collected works (GSD) has "versagt" but most scores have "entsagt".
According to Lilli Lehmann, "entsagt" was what Woglinde sang in 1876.

"And here I must mention that I always sang in my part in 'Rheingold':
'Nur wer der Minne Macht entsagt', never 'versagt' as I always heard it
sung later. I drew Levi's attention to this in 1884 at Munich, when he
wanted me to sing 'versagt' instead of 'entsagt'; Wagner, who heard me
sing it hundreds of times, would surely have corrected me if he wanted it
otherwise. The scene itself goes on to demonstrate this too, for the
quaver rest comes before 'entsagt' and not before 'Macht' as it would do
if the meaning were different..." (Lilli Lehmann, the first Woglinde, in
her memoirs 'Mein Weg', Leipzig 1913).

[Mike Scott Rohan]

Post by Derrick Everett

Post by Johnno
The first time the theme is really sung out, double underlined, as it
were, is later when Woglinde sings "Nur wer der Minne Macht versagt..."
(p40), which is about the renunciation of love.

The collected works (GSD) has "versagt" but most scores have "entsagt".
According to Lilli Lehmann, "entsagt" was what Woglinde sang in 1876.
'Nur wer der Minne Macht entsagt', never 'versagt' as I always heard it
sung later. I drew Levi's attention to this in 1884 at Munich, when he
wanted me to sing 'versagt' instead of 'entsagt'; Wagner, who heard me
sing it hundreds of times, would surely have corrected me if he wanted it
otherwise. The scene itself goes on to demonstrate this too, for the
quaver rest comes before 'entsagt' and not before 'Macht' as it would do
if the meaning were different..." (Lilli Lehmann, the first Woglinde, in
her memoirs 'Mein Weg', Leipzig 1913).

And it's much more meaningful. "Versagen" really only means to deny or
reject. "Entsagen" is very definitely to renounce, which is the whole
point. Mere denial doesn't seem final enough.

Plus, "entsagt" sounds much more emphatic in that musical line, with
those t-terminated syllables. But it's also a lot harder to sing nicely,
and I bet that's why the change crept in! Singers are always messing the
words around to make them easier -- compare what was actually sung in
the Goodall Ring with Porter's original published translation.

Cheers,

Mike

[Mike Scott Rohan]

The message
<eabcd996-0e1c-4ca4-9af3-***@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
from Johnno <***@mail.terrace.qld.edu.au> contains these words:

{snip}

Post by Johnno
Nevertheless, the fact that Wagner uses that same melody, double-
underlined again, and in the same key, when Siegmund draws the sword
out of the tree, tells me that Wagner is drawing a strong parallel
between this and the seizing of the gold, and I find Sabor's
explanation as satisfactory as any I've read.

I agree that there is a strong connection that must originally have been
in Wagner's mind, but as I said the last time this came up, I think
there's a danger in seeking for too explicit a "meaning".

Much as I respect Sabor, I cannot see that Siegmund's drawing the sword
unleashes any consequences as remotely disastrous as Alberich's theft --
quite the contrary, for, despite everything, things would have been a
lot worse if he had never drawn it. He and Sieglinde would have met
death instead of love, for instance, however short-lived; and Siegfried
would never have existed. Alberich would have triumphed without
opposition, and, for all Wotan's faults, Alberich's reign would have
been infinitely worse. And Wotan does in the end see that he's
prevented, even at the cost of his own power -- an ultimate good
achieved through the existence of Siegfried, which *was* brought about
through Wotan's plan -- albeit unintentionally and beyond his control --
and the drawing of the sword.

So how to explain it? What I think is the explanation is a lot harder to
define in words, but that only makes it seem likelier. The parallel is
there -- two protagonists each drawing a item of great power out of a
special encasement achievable only by the properly qualified person --
but contrary to what Sabor suggests, it's not an equation of the two,
but more like a mirror image.

Alberich's act unleashes evil and ultimately the curse. Siegmund's act,
the first thing he has done which makes sense of his and Sieglinde's
existence, unleashes something which is meant to fight that evil, and
ultimately the curse. It's the beginning of a counter-campaign, like one
side in chess moving its first pawn in response to the other's opening.
And naturally this involves an affirmation of love as a counter-image to
its renunciation. This, though, is still too explicit, I think; the
actual significance is more mystical. It's the sheer emotive potency of
the two acts that fuels the musical parallel.

Cheers,

Mike

[A.C. Douglas]

Post by A.C. Douglas
Just at the moment of Siegmund's triumph, the orchestra (here
acting as Greek chorus) comments on that moment with tragic irony as if to
say, "Have you forgotten Alberich's world-encompassing primal curse [i.e.,
his renunciation of love]? Siegmund may extract the sword left for him by
Wotan, but it will be no help to him, and be to no avail. His and
Sieglinde's love are doomed."

The above contains two typos (Wotan for Wälse, and "are" for "is") and is
carelessly worded. It would have better been written:

Just at the moment of Siegmund's triumph, the orchestra (here acting as Greek
chorus) comments on that moment with tragic irony as if to say, "Have you
forgotten Alberich's world-encompassing primal curse [i.e., his renunciation
of love]? Siegmund may extract the sword promised him by his father when
Siegmund should need it most, but it will be no help to him, and be to no
avail. His and Sieglinde's love is doomed."

---
ACD
http://www.soundsandfury.com/

[Derrick Everett]

[Wagner] certainly is not responsible for the names themselves, which
actually differ very widely between commentators, and in many cases,
even common ones, misrepresent the musical or dramatic identity of the
theme. Does the sword motif represent the actual sword, for example, or
the idea and purpose of the sword?

That's a difficult one. In the score this motive first appears before the
sword is on-stage. Is this a presentiment (foreboding) of the motive,
which according to Wagner does not become bound to a meaning before it
accompanies something seen by the eye of the listener? During the first
rehearsals, Wagner asked Wotan to pick up a sword that had been dropped by
the giants -- part of the Nibelung hoard -- and to hail Valhalla with it
(1), as the sword motive is heard. This is *not* in the stage directions
of the score but there is authority for it in the performance tradition of
Bayreuth.

There are a few -- very few -- leading motives for which there is a name
applied to them by Wagner. In few of those cases does the name used by
Wagner coincide with the name given to the same motive by Wolzogen or
others. We have Wagner's word, for example, that the four notes of a
rising chromatic scale that are known as the desire motive (Sehnsuchts-
motiv) of 'Tristan' represent "insatiable longing" (2). I have argued,
elsewhere, that this motive has a similar significance in 'Parsifal'.

In another case it was recorded by Porges that Wagner referred to a theme
he introduced in the third act of 'Siegfried' -- originally, according to
Cosima, written down for use in 'Die Sieger' -- as the "solemnly elevated
theme of joyful renunciation": this was misleadingly named by Wolzogen as
the Welterbschaftsmotiv, known in translation as 'Inheritance of the
World'. Although understandable from the context (Wotan's dialogue with
Erda: "dem herrlichsten Wälsung weis' ich mein Erbe an") in which it
appears, the motive does not seem to have been connected by Wagner with
the idea of world-inheritance. Porges, presumably following Wagner,
refers to it (3) as the Redemption motive (Erlösungsmotiv).

I believe that any semantic meaning that the leading motives might have --
and it is entirely possible that most of them have *no* meaning -- is
less specific and more flexible than it is generally thought. Even in the
'Ring' but especially so in 'Tristan' (where the Desire and Sea motives
are obvious exceptions) and 'Parsifal' (where the Prophecy motive is
another such).


Notes

1: Porges, page 39. "As the new theme is sounded, signifying a new deed
to be accomplished in the future (musical quotation), Wotan, seized by a
great thought, picks up the sword left by Fafner and, pointing to the
castle, cries: 'So grüss ich die Burg ...'"

2. SS XII, p346. In the 'Tristan' analysis of Roger North (Wagner's Most
Subtle Art), this is the second of the three Urmotiven; therefore he calls
it simply "b".

3. Porges, page 103. "Wagner expressly demanded that the Redemption theme
as it enters after Wotan's words ... should be taken 'slightly faster'
than the preceding bars and that it should be 'very brought out' (sehr
heraus) ..."

[Shawn Thuris]

On Apr 2, 7:14 am, Mike Scott Rohan

Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The message

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
Thanks to everyone for your recent response to my question regarding
the 1st act of Siegfried, however I now have a different question,
regarding leitmotifs.

<snip>

Post by Mike Scott Rohan
He certainly is not responsible for the names themselves, which actually
differ very widely between commentators, and in many cases, even common
ones, misrepresent the musical or dramatic identity of the theme. Does
the sword motif represent the actual sword, for example, or the idea and
purpose of the sword? And there is the famous discussion over what's
often called the Renunciation of Love motif, which has spread to this
group -- if that's what it represents, why does Siegmund sing it as he
draws Notung from the tree -- if anything, a triumphant affirmation of
love? There is a curious appropriateness to it, but, as I suggested in
the discussion, it isn't expressed in that title and may not be so
easily summed up in a few words. But find Cooke; he'll tell you more
than anyone here can!

<snip>

I see a couple of possibilities: Siegmund knows that the sword is his
only chance to defend himself, so he grasps it in desperation, and
Alberich's desperation is even more obvious. On the other hand, if we
view the music as full of carefully placed signposts, this theme can
be seen as foreshadowing, as though to say, "This character's choice
advances the plot to its inevitable conclusion". Taking it in that
sense I could see a link (maybe tenuous) specifically between
Alberich's and Siegmund's actions.

All in all, I think the theme is an expression of the belief on the
part of each of these that his situation is perilous and that only
through taking this single bold action is there any chance to improve
things. If we do need a name for this motive, I might suggest
something like "Desperation" in the first case (as music embodying the
character's thought) or "Embracing Fate" in the latter (as Wagner
speaking to us directly, over the heads of his characters).

S.T.

[Bert Coules]

Jill,

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
I have a copy of the Stewart Spencer/Barry Millington book, which I
use whilst listening/watching The Ring.

Don't! Throw it aside and immerse yourself in the drama, not the
technicalities.

Bert

[Chris]

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to
listen to the leitmotifs?

The absolute best tool I've encountered is the "Ring Disc" -

http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Disc-Interactive-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp/B000001A3A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1207142988&sr=8-1

It's a CD-Rom with the entire Solti Ring Cycle (compressed and in mono
- though all things considered, it doesn't sound all that bad) - with
scrolling text, leitmotif identification, various essays, etc.

Sadly, it's not available through amazon but I'd check local libraries
- it's extremely well done.

[Mike Scott Rohan]

The message

Post by Chris

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to
listen to the leitmotifs?

The absolute best tool I've encountered is the "Ring Disc" -
http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Disc-Interactive-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp/B000001A3A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1207142988&sr=8-1
It's a CD-Rom with the entire Solti Ring Cycle (compressed and in mono
- though all things considered, it doesn't sound all that bad) - with
scrolling text, leitmotif identification, various essays, etc.
Sadly, it's not available through amazon but I'd check local libraries
- it's extremely well done.

Its creator, Monte Stone, was a regular and respected poster here for a
while. It is indeed very good -- though the Ring recording is only in
mono -- but I think is probably OP unless Monte himself is still selling
it. Anyone out there know?

Also whether it will run on Vista? Still using XP myself!

Cheers,

Mike

[Derrick Everett]

Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The message

Post by Chris

Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to listen to the
leitmotifs?

The absolute best tool I've encountered is the "Ring Disc" -
http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Disc-Interactive-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp/B000001A3A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1207142988&sr=8-1
It's a CD-Rom with the entire Solti Ring Cycle (compressed and in mono
- though all things considered, it doesn't sound all that bad) - with
scrolling text, leitmotif identification, various essays, etc.
Sadly, it's not available through amazon but I'd check local libraries
- it's extremely well done.

Its creator, Monte Stone, was a regular and respected poster here for a
while. It is indeed very good -- though the Ring recording is only in
mono -- but I think is probably OP unless Monte himself is still selling
it. Anyone out there know?
Also whether it will run on Vista? Still using XP myself!

Does anything run on Vista? ;-)

[Chris]

It runs fine on Vista - I actually just played mine the other day on a
new machine without problems.


On Apr 2, 11:31 am, Mike Scott Rohan

Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The message

Post by Chris

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to
listen to the leitmotifs?

The absolute best tool I've encountered is the "Ring Disc" -
http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Disc-Interactive-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp...
It's a CD-Rom with the entire Solti Ring Cycle (compressed and in mono
- though all things considered, it doesn't sound all that bad) - with
scrolling text, leitmotif identification, various essays, etc.
Sadly, it's not available through amazon but I'd check local libraries
- it's extremely well done.

Its creator, Monte Stone, was a regular and respected poster here for a
while. It is indeed very good -- though the Ring recording is only in
mono -- but I think is probably OP unless Monte himself is still selling
it. Anyone out there know?
Also whether it will run on Vista? Still using XP myself!
Cheers,
Mike
--

[j***@adm.monash.edu.au]

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to
listen to the leitmotifs?

The absolute best tool I've encountered is the "Ring Disc"  -
http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Disc-Interactive-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp...
It's a CD-Rom with the entire Solti Ring Cycle (compressed and in mono
- though all things considered, it doesn't sound all that bad) - with
scrolling text, leitmotif identification, various essays, etc.
Sadly, it's not available through amazon but I'd check local libraries
- it's extremely well done.

[Richard Partridge]

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to
listen to the leitmotifs?

The absolute best tool I've encountered is the "Ring Disc"  -
http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Disc-Interactive-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp...
It's a CD-Rom with the entire Solti Ring Cycle (compressed and in mono
- though all things considered, it doesn't sound all that bad) - with
scrolling text, leitmotif identification, various essays, etc.
Sadly, it's not available through amazon but I'd check local libraries
- it's extremely well done.

Well, don't overlook this very informative web site:

http://allenbdunningmd.com/RingThemes.htm

entitled "The Musical Themes Of Der Ring Des Nibelungen."

It has the considerable virtue of being free.


Dick Partridge

[j***@adm.monash.edu.au]

Yes, thanks - I forgot to say that the Musical Themes website is very
informative, and I keep coming back to it - it a great distractor from
the other affairs of the day!

Post by A.C. Douglas

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to
listen to the leitmotifs?

The absolute best tool I've encountered is the "Ring Disc"  -
http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Disc-Interactive-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp...
It's a CD-Rom with the entire Solti Ring Cycle (compressed and in mono
- though all things considered, it doesn't sound all that bad) - with
scrolling text, leitmotif identification, various essays, etc.
Sadly, it's not available through amazon but I'd check local libraries
- it's extremely well done.

http://allenbdunningmd.com/RingThemes.htm
entitled "The Musical Themes Of Der Ring Des Nibelungen."
It has the considerable virtue of being free.
Dick Partridge- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

[j***@adm.monash.edu.au]

The absolute best tool I've encountered is the "Ring Disc"  -

Sorry, I sent off my last post, with nothing in it - it was meant to
say thanks for alerting me to the Ring Disc - I managed to track it
down and have just received it - it is great, and will certainly be a
fantastic help. I also managed to borrow the Deryck Cooke CDs from a
friend, and have found it wonderful also,

Jill

[g***@gmail.com]

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
Thanks to everyone for your recent response to my question regarding
the 1st act of Siegfried, however I now have a different question,
regarding leitmotifs.
I have a copy of the Stewart Spencer/Barry Millington book, which I
use whilst listening/watching The Ring. Although I can read music, I
am hopeless at singing printed music (or "hearing" it in my head), and
many of the 67 leitmotifs in the book are not named. I have searched
the chat room for past posts on the subject (and many thanks to
Derrick Everitt for a great summary in 2002, which I found very
informative), however I am wondering if there is any way of finding
whether the remaining leitmotifs have been named subsequently - or by
some-one else? Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to
listen to the leitmotifs?
Thanks,
Jill

Concerning leitmotifs, have you seen the recent movie MONOS?:

- We also were giving musical notes to certain characters, like the messenger when he appears on screen, he has a very shrill whistle that allows you lord over the kids.

http://moveablefest.com/alejandro-landes-monos/

[RANDY WOLFGANG]

Post by g***@gmail.com

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
Thanks to everyone for your recent response to my question regarding
the 1st act of Siegfried, however I now have a different question,
regarding leitmotifs.
I have a copy of the Stewart Spencer/Barry Millington book, which I
use whilst listening/watching The Ring. Although I can read music, I
am hopeless at singing printed music (or "hearing" it in my head), and
many of the 67 leitmotifs in the book are not named. I have searched
the chat room for past posts on the subject (and many thanks to
Derrick Everitt for a great summary in 2002, which I found very
informative), however I am wondering if there is any way of finding
whether the remaining leitmotifs have been named subsequently - or by
some-one else? Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to
listen to the leitmotifs?
Thanks,
Jill

- We also were giving musical notes to certain characters, like the messenger when he appears on screen, he has a very shrill whistle that allows you lord over the kids.
http://moveablefest.com/alejandro-landes-monos/

Hardly the first movie to give motives to characters or events - you should get out more

[REP]

Ahh... so many familiar names in this thread, most of them gone from this Earth. I'm glad you're being more communicative, gggg, but I wish you wouldn't bump these old threads. They're a painful reminder of all the friends we've lost over the years.

REP

[gggg gggg]

Post by g***@gmail.com

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
Thanks to everyone for your recent response to my question regarding
the 1st act of Siegfried, however I now have a different question,
regarding leitmotifs.
I have a copy of the Stewart Spencer/Barry Millington book, which I
use whilst listening/watching The Ring. Although I can read music, I
am hopeless at singing printed music (or "hearing" it in my head), and
many of the 67 leitmotifs in the book are not named. I have searched
the chat room for past posts on the subject (and many thanks to
Derrick Everitt for a great summary in 2002, which I found very
informative), however I am wondering if there is any way of finding
whether the remaining leitmotifs have been named subsequently - or by
some-one else? Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to
listen to the leitmotifs?
Thanks,
Jill

- We also were giving musical notes to certain characters, like the messenger when he appears on screen, he has a very shrill whistle that allows you lord over the kids.
http://moveablefest.com/alejandro-landes-monos/

Concerning the movie "King Kong"(1933):

- Steiner used a number of new film scoring techniques, such as drawing upon opera conventions for his use of leitmotifs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Kong_(1933_film)#Post-production

[gggg gggg]

Post by j***@adm.monash.edu.au
Thanks to everyone for your recent response to my question regarding
the 1st act of Siegfried, however I now have a different question,
regarding leitmotifs.
I have a copy of the Stewart Spencer/Barry Millington book, which I
use whilst listening/watching The Ring. Although I can read music, I
am hopeless at singing printed music (or "hearing" it in my head), and
many of the 67 leitmotifs in the book are not named. I have searched
the chat room for past posts on the subject (and many thanks to
Derrick Everitt for a great summary in 2002, which I found very
informative), however I am wondering if there is any way of finding
whether the remaining leitmotifs have been named subsequently - or by
some-one else? Also does anyone know of a website that allows you to
listen to the leitmotifs?
Thanks,
Jill

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/4igNsAOLuEo