Discussion:
Eloquence
(too old to reply)
Mike Scott Rohan
2018-04-22 16:12:26 UTC
Permalink
The Australian label Eloquence, which has come up with some superb re-release stuff from the Universal catalogue, announces some interesting release for later this year, including the Flagstad Gotterdammerung with Fjeldstad -- not brilliant (and cut) but interesting, and likely to be better remastered than other re-releases -- and the Goodall Tristan.

Cheers,

Mike
Herman van der Woude
2018-04-22 16:36:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The Australian label Eloquence, which has come up with some superb re-release
stuff from the Universal catalogue, announces some interesting release for
later this year, including the Flagstad Gotterdammerung with Fjeldstad -- not
brilliant (and cut) but interesting, and likely to be better remastered than
other re-releases -- and the Goodall Tristan.
Cheers,
Mike
Interesting news, Mike! Especially the re-release of the Goodall
Tristan. I wonder which Tristan? The original DECCA release (WNO, sung
in German) or the BBC radio-recording (ENO, live, sung in English)?
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Cheers,
Herman van der Woude

---
Deze e-mail is gecontroleerd op virussen door AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Mike Scott Rohan
2018-04-23 14:20:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman van der Woude
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The Australian label Eloquence, which has come up with some superb re-release
stuff from the Universal catalogue, announces some interesting release for
later this year, including the Flagstad Gotterdammerung with Fjeldstad -- not
brilliant (and cut) but interesting, and likely to be better remastered than
other re-releases -- and the Goodall Tristan.
Cheers,
Mike
Interesting news, Mike! Especially the re-release of the Goodall
Tristan. I wonder which Tristan? The original DECCA release (WNO, sung
in German) or the BBC radio-recording (ENO, live, sung in English)?
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Cheers,
Herman van der Woude
---
Deze e-mail is gecontroleerd op virussen door AVG.
http://www.avg.com
I'm sure it's the Decca. Eloquence doesn't usually release radio material, mostly back catalogue stuff, some of it quite rare, including some very respectable Wagner titles, including Knappertsbusch's 1951 studio Meistersinger. It might interest you particularly that in this year's releases there's quite a few of Eduard van Beinum's 1950s Decca recordings, remastered, including Mendelssohn, Schubert, Mahler and much else.

Cheers,

Mike
Herman van der Woude
2018-04-23 15:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
Post by Herman van der Woude
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The Australian label Eloquence, which has come up with some superb
re-release stuff from the Universal catalogue, announces some interesting
release for later this year, including the Flagstad Gotterdammerung with
Fjeldstad -- not brilliant (and cut) but interesting, and likely to be
better remastered than other re-releases -- and the Goodall Tristan.
Cheers,
Mike
Interesting news, Mike! Especially the re-release of the Goodall
Tristan. I wonder which Tristan? The original DECCA release (WNO, sung
in German) or the BBC radio-recording (ENO, live, sung in English)?
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Cheers,
Herman van der Woude
---
Deze e-mail is gecontroleerd op virussen door AVG.
http://www.avg.com
I'm sure it's the Decca. Eloquence doesn't usually release radio material,
mostly back catalogue stuff, some of it quite rare, including some very
respectable Wagner titles, including Knappertsbusch's 1951 studio
Meistersinger. It might interest you particularly that in this year's
releases there's quite a few of Eduard van Beinum's 1950s Decca recordings,
remastered, including Mendelssohn, Schubert, Mahler and much else.
Cheers,
Mike
You will probably be right, that it is the Decca. Actually, I just
can't wait. I have a copy of the original release on cd's but I am
happy to have it changed to the new re-release, at last!
And now there's a chance for Chandos to (finally) release the BBC
recordings of the ENO under Goodall, as Chandos is the house for operas
in English! I wouldn't be surprised...
As we all know, or should know, that Eduard van Beinum was one of the
best conductors my 'little country by the sea gave to the world. His
disadvantage was that he died too young and that he made almost all of
his recordings in mono, just at the brink of stereo. But Eloquence made
some of his fine recordings available, César Franck's Psyché could be
one for me.

Life's still worth living!
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Cheers,
Herman van der Woude
Mike Scott Rohan
2018-04-24 14:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman van der Woude
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
Post by Herman van der Woude
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The Australian label Eloquence, which has come up with some superb
re-release stuff from the Universal catalogue, announces some interesting
release for later this year, including the Flagstad Gotterdammerung with
Fjeldstad -- not brilliant (and cut) but interesting, and likely to be
better remastered than other re-releases -- and the Goodall Tristan.
Cheers,
Mike
Interesting news, Mike! Especially the re-release of the Goodall
Tristan. I wonder which Tristan? The original DECCA release (WNO, sung
in German) or the BBC radio-recording (ENO, live, sung in English)?
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Cheers,
Herman van der Woude
---
Deze e-mail is gecontroleerd op virussen door AVG.
http://www.avg.com
I'm sure it's the Decca. Eloquence doesn't usually release radio material,
mostly back catalogue stuff, some of it quite rare, including some very
respectable Wagner titles, including Knappertsbusch's 1951 studio
Meistersinger. It might interest you particularly that in this year's
releases there's quite a few of Eduard van Beinum's 1950s Decca recordings,
remastered, including Mendelssohn, Schubert, Mahler and much else.
Cheers,
Mike
You will probably be right, that it is the Decca. Actually, I just
can't wait. I have a copy of the original release on cd's but I am
happy to have it changed to the new re-release, at last!
And now there's a chance for Chandos to (finally) release the BBC
recordings of the ENO under Goodall, as Chandos is the house for operas
in English! I wouldn't be surprised...
As we all know, or should know, that Eduard van Beinum was one of the
best conductors my 'little country by the sea gave to the world. His
disadvantage was that he died too young and that he made almost all of
his recordings in mono, just at the brink of stereo. But Eloquence made
some of his fine recordings available, César Franck's Psyché could be
one for me.
Life's still worth living!
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Cheers,
Herman van der Woude
Glad to hear it! I'm not so sure that Chandos would release that Tristan now, I'm afraid, because Peter Moores' foundation, which sponsored that English-language line, closed with its funds exhausted in 2014, shortly before his death. Since it donated something like £230 million to mainly artistic causes, we can't exactly complain! However, the good news is that other labels, particularly Lyrita, are releasing material from a huge British radio recording archive kept by a well-known sound engineer. I've had a couple of these to review, and they're pretty good. It's not impossible the ENO Tristan would feature in this; if I have the chance I'll try to find out.

Cheers,

Mike
Bert Coules
2018-04-24 16:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
It's not impossible the ENO Tristan would feature in
this; if I have the chance I'll try to find out.
With Remedios, Linda Esther-Gray and Norman Bailey (to my shame I can't
recall who played Brangäne) it would certainly be welcome. I wonder if
they're open to suggestions (subject of course to availability)? I'd
welcome the ENO Lohengrin, and, in the non-Wagnerian line, the same
company's superb first production of War and Peace.

Bert
Mike Scott Rohan
2018-04-26 17:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Coules
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
It's not impossible the ENO Tristan would feature in
this; if I have the chance I'll try to find out.
With Remedios, Linda Esther-Gray and Norman Bailey (to my shame I can't
recall who played Brangäne) it would certainly be welcome. I wonder if
they're open to suggestions (subject of course to availability)? I'd
welcome the ENO Lohengrin, and, in the non-Wagnerian line, the same
company's superb first production of War and Peace.
Bert
A lot of course depends on what's in Richard Itter's archive and, of course, what they can clear for release. What we've had so far is mostly lesser-known Brit stuff, some of it very good; but apparently there's a wide range of BBC material dating from the 50s to 1996, including Proms, operas, etc. So we'll have to see what actually emerges, and how soon.

Cheers,

Mike
Dogbertd
2018-04-23 14:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The Australian label Eloquence, which has come up with some superb
re-release stuff from the Universal catalogue, announces some
interesting release for later this year, including the Flagstad
Gotterdammerung with Fjeldstad -- not brilliant (and cut) but
interesting, and likely to be better remastered than other re-releases
-- and the Goodall Tristan.
Cheers,
Mike
Good news, Mike!

I heard the Goodall Tristan in the theatre a couple of times in the
last century, and stupidly never bought the CDs. When I see the
Eloquence set, I'll rectify that mistake.

Incidentally, the first time I heard Goodall's Tristan was in Oxford,
and Jessye Norman walked past me on the way to the stalls. It's true
that there was no sideways to her...

Dogbertd
Mike Scott Rohan
2018-04-23 14:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dogbertd
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The Australian label Eloquence, which has come up with some superb
re-release stuff from the Universal catalogue, announces some
interesting release for later this year, including the Flagstad
Gotterdammerung with Fjeldstad -- not brilliant (and cut) but
interesting, and likely to be better remastered than other re-releases
-- and the Goodall Tristan.
Cheers,
Mike
Good news, Mike!
I heard the Goodall Tristan in the theatre a couple of times in the
last century, and stupidly never bought the CDs. When I see the
Eloquence set, I'll rectify that mistake.
Incidentally, the first time I heard Goodall's Tristan was in Oxford,
and Jessye Norman walked past me on the way to the stalls. It's true
that there was no sideways to her...
Dogbertd
Yes, I was stuck behind her once in the chorus. We couldn't see the conductor! And when I was with Classic CD magazine she stuck us with the famous lawsuit about the revolving door, which went on for years, until even her own lawyers got fed up. I find it amusing to imagine her in the rather narrow front-of-house in the Oxford Apollo. (Mind you, at an ENO party a friend and I, neither exactly small, were trapped in a corner by Rita Hunter's back -- but at least we could see *over* her...)

The Apollo was my operatic home for many years, and a great place for meeting people -- in one go, at the ENO's Gotterdammerung I think, I came across the tenor Charles Craig, the director Peter Ebert(son of Carl), Peter Hemmings of Scottish Opera and the LA Opera, and Harold Rosenthal and Lord Harewood of Opera magazine. And in the dreadful Italian restaurant next door a fellow student and I were ogling, as students do, a very fashionable and attractive older lady who turned out to be Ann Howard, going on as a Norn.

Cheers,

Mike
m***@gmail.com
2018-04-24 18:09:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The Australian label Eloquence, which has come up with some superb re-release stuff from the Universal catalogue, announces some interesting release for later this year, including the Flagstad Gotterdammerung with Fjeldstad -- not brilliant (and cut) but interesting, and likely to be better remastered than other re-releases -- and the Goodall Tristan.
Cheers,
Mike
None of the CD versions I have heard of the Norwegian Gotterdammerung matches the sound I have from the original LPs. As for the performance - "you have a once great Brunnhilde giving us emphatic if sporadic reminders of her stature in the role, a once suitable Siegfried making intelligence and musicianship count for their full but still inadequate worth, supporting artists in no way equal to their assignments, uninspired leadership and tolerable monophonic sound". Worth a sample now and again but can be pretty much left on the shelf. We all know that Decca didn't even want to release the thing but did so as a gesture to get Flagstad to sign on with the label.
Mike Scott Rohan
2018-04-26 17:36:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
None of the CD versions I have heard of the Norwegian Gotterdammerung matches the sound I have from the original LPs. As for the performance - "you have a once great Brunnhilde giving us emphatic if sporadic reminders of her stature in the role, a once suitable Siegfried making intelligence and musicianship count for their full but still inadequate worth, supporting artists in no way equal to their assignments, uninspired leadership and tolerable monophonic sound". Worth a sample now and again but can be pretty much left on the shelf. We all know that Decca didn't even want to release the thing but did so as a gesture to get Flagstad to sign on with the label.
It got quite a write-up on its last release. I listened to it, and though I didn't buy it (too much else) I was more impressed than this would suggest -- and I'm not a Flagstad fan at all. As I remember it, Fjelstad is by no means bad, in a brisk, fresh manner, and the cast would be welcome in most performances today. The orchestra is not brilliant, but no disgrace either.

Cheers,

Mike
m***@gmail.com
2018-04-27 15:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
Post by m***@gmail.com
None of the CD versions I have heard of the Norwegian Gotterdammerung matches the sound I have from the original LPs. As for the performance - "you have a once great Brunnhilde giving us emphatic if sporadic reminders of her stature in the role, a once suitable Siegfried making intelligence and musicianship count for their full but still inadequate worth, supporting artists in no way equal to their assignments, uninspired leadership and tolerable monophonic sound". Worth a sample now and again but can be pretty much left on the shelf. We all know that Decca didn't even want to release the thing but did so as a gesture to get Flagstad to sign on with the label.
It got quite a write-up on its last release. I listened to it, and though I didn't buy it (too much else) I was more impressed than this would suggest -- and I'm not a Flagstad fan at all. As I remember it, Fjelstad is by no means bad, in a brisk, fresh manner, and the cast would be welcome in most performances today. The orchestra is not brilliant, but no disgrace either.
Cheers,
Mike
Listen to it again - the Hagen and Gunther are hopeless - that's the only word I can come up with - both of them sound like they never sang these parts before and knew nothing about them. When you add that to totally nondescript voices you come up with two big zeroes in a Gotterdammerung performance. As for Fjeldstad its obvious there was very little rehearsal time - the combined orchestras heave and lurch along with many mistakes big and small. The Norns sound like a good sight read as do the Rhine daughters. We know what to expect and some of it is quite appreciable from the two leads - at one point Decca released a 2 LP abridgment with just Flagstads part. The set held a place in the Lp lists until the stereo Solti set which was better in every respect and relegated the 56 set to sampler status - which is where it belongs
m***@gmail.com
2018-04-27 15:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
Post by m***@gmail.com
None of the CD versions I have heard of the Norwegian Gotterdammerung matches the sound I have from the original LPs. As for the performance - "you have a once great Brunnhilde giving us emphatic if sporadic reminders of her stature in the role, a once suitable Siegfried making intelligence and musicianship count for their full but still inadequate worth, supporting artists in no way equal to their assignments, uninspired leadership and tolerable monophonic sound". Worth a sample now and again but can be pretty much left on the shelf. We all know that Decca didn't even want to release the thing but did so as a gesture to get Flagstad to sign on with the label.
It got quite a write-up on its last release. I listened to it, and though I didn't buy it (too much else) I was more impressed than this would suggest -- and I'm not a Flagstad fan at all. As I remember it, Fjelstad is by no means bad, in a brisk, fresh manner, and the cast would be welcome in most performances today. The orchestra is not brilliant, but no disgrace either.
Cheers,
Mike
Listen to it again - the Hagen and Gunther are hopeless - that's the only word I can come up with - both of them sound like they never sang these parts before and knew nothing about them. When you add that to totally nondescript voices you come up with two big zeroes in a Gotterdammerung performance. As for Fjeldstad its obvious there was very little rehearsal time - the combined orchestras heave and lurch along with many mistakes big and small. The Norns sound like a good sight read as do the Rhine daughters. We know what to expect and some of it is quite appreciable from the two leads - at one point Decca released a 2 LP abridgment with just Flagstads part. The set held a place in the Lp lists until the stereo Solti set which was better in every respect and relegated the 56 set to sampler status - which is where it belongs
On the other hand don't listen to it again - life is too short
Mike Scott Rohan
2018-04-28 14:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
On the other hand don't listen to it again - life is too short
Not an attitude my work will let me adopt. Opinions and standards change, and all too often when I was learning about music I let myself be guided by critics who had long ago decided that version X was the ultimate benchmark and nothing else could measure up to it. I almost always regretted it; the Toscanini Falstaff, and the Fricsay Hollander, as opposed to the Klemperer, were examples. In other cases there might be something to a recording they recommended, but attended by so many disadvantages that made it worthless or worse to a new listener -- the Furtwangler La Scala Ring, for example, which was insistently, almost bullyingly, recommended by Michael Tanner and others *for first-time listeners*, while rubbishing the Solti especially, but others as well. Never mind the huge cuts, the variable (to put it politely) singing, the vile orchestra, the lousy recording, all the things that make it heavy going even for experienced listeners -- this was the only true recording. God knows how many impoverished students shelled out their scanty money on that basis. So, I try to judge everything that comes my way on its merits, or otherwise, as I perceive them, not as someone else does. And while I have to suffer a lot of dross that way, and occasionally take some amazing vituperation from interval-bar knowalls, I've also had some very pleasant surprises.

Cheers,

Mike
m***@gmail.com
2018-04-30 00:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
Post by m***@gmail.com
On the other hand don't listen to it again - life is too short
Not an attitude my work will let me adopt. Opinions and standards change, and all too often when I was learning about music I let myself be guided by critics who had long ago decided that version X was the ultimate benchmark and nothing else could measure up to it. I almost always regretted it; the Toscanini Falstaff, and the Fricsay Hollander, as opposed to the Klemperer, were examples. In other cases there might be something to a recording they recommended, but attended by so many disadvantages that made it worthless or worse to a new listener -- the Furtwangler La Scala Ring, for example, which was insistently, almost bullyingly, recommended by Michael Tanner and others *for first-time listeners*, while rubbishing the Solti especially, but others as well. Never mind the huge cuts, the variable (to put it politely) singing, the vile orchestra, the lousy recording, all the things that make it heavy going even for experienced listeners -- this was the only true recording. God knows how many impoverished students shelled out their scanty money on that basis. So, I try to judge everything that comes my way on its merits, or otherwise, as I perceive them, not as someone else does. And while I have to suffer a lot of dross that way, and occasionally take some amazing vituperation from interval-bar knowalls, I've also had some very pleasant surprises.
Cheers,
Mike
Actually I gave it another listen as a response to our little exchange (so life is longer than I thought I guess!!!!) My version is a direct Transfer from the original LPs and the sound is rather good - solid monophonic. Flagstad sings some drop dead gorgeous phrases in Act II - the Immolation is good but better on both the 48 and 52 Furt led versions. Svanholm seems to grow younger as the performance progresses and the tone, though by now rather bumpily phrased sounds youthful, Bjoner is a very attractive Gutrune. But my opinion on the roles of Hagen and Gunther have not changed at all - they are crushingly mediocre and the Hagen has none of the insidiousness needed. Gustavson (known as a really miscast Amneris in the Toscanini Aida) is a wooly sounding Waltraute. Of course there is that distressing cut in the first Act. I do go back to the set once on a while for its few palpable virtues.
Mike Scott Rohan
2018-04-30 17:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
Post by m***@gmail.com
On the other hand don't listen to it again - life is too short
Not an attitude my work will let me adopt. Opinions and standards change, and all too often when I was learning about music I let myself be guided by critics who had long ago decided that version X was the ultimate benchmark and nothing else could measure up to it. I almost always regretted it; the Toscanini Falstaff, and the Fricsay Hollander, as opposed to the Klemperer, were examples. In other cases there might be something to a recording they recommended, but attended by so many disadvantages that made it worthless or worse to a new listener -- the Furtwangler La Scala Ring, for example, which was insistently, almost bullyingly, recommended by Michael Tanner and others *for first-time listeners*, while rubbishing the Solti especially, but others as well. Never mind the huge cuts, the variable (to put it politely) singing, the vile orchestra, the lousy recording, all the things that make it heavy going even for experienced listeners -- this was the only true recording. God knows how many impoverished students shelled out their scanty money on that basis. So, I try to judge everything that comes my way on its merits, or otherwise, as I perceive them, not as someone else does. And while I have to suffer a lot of dross that way, and occasionally take some amazing vituperation from interval-bar knowalls, I've also had some very pleasant surprises.
Cheers,
Mike
Actually I gave it another listen as a response to our little exchange (so life is longer than I thought I guess!!!!) My version is a direct Transfer from the original LPs and the sound is rather good - solid monophonic. Flagstad sings some drop dead gorgeous phrases in Act II - the Immolation is good but better on both the 48 and 52 Furt led versions. Svanholm seems to grow younger as the performance progresses and the tone, though by now rather bumpily phrased sounds youthful, Bjoner is a very attractive Gutrune. But my opinion on the roles of Hagen and Gunther have not changed at all - they are crushingly mediocre and the Hagen has none of the insidiousness needed. Gustavson (known as a really miscast Amneris in the Toscanini Aida) is a wooly sounding Waltraute. Of course there is that distressing cut in the first Act. I do go back to the set once on a while for its few palpable virtues.
Well, I shall certainly give it another go, as and when. As I said, Flagstad isn't a favourite of mine anyhow, which probably brands me as a blasphemer in some quarters, but I prefer a brighter, more youthful voice -- and a more feminine one than Nilsson, much as I admire her. My first live Brunnhildes were Dernesch, Amy Shuard, Anita Valkki, Berit Lindholm and Rita Hunter, which may have formed my tastes. Flagstad sounds too matronly to me, even in her earliest recordings -- though even then she wasn't that young. But that's purely personal taste!

Cheers,

Mike

Mike Scott Rohan
2018-04-28 14:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
Post by m***@gmail.com
None of the CD versions I have heard of the Norwegian Gotterdammerung matches the sound I have from the original LPs. As for the performance - "you have a once great Brunnhilde giving us emphatic if sporadic reminders of her stature in the role, a once suitable Siegfried making intelligence and musicianship count for their full but still inadequate worth, supporting artists in no way equal to their assignments, uninspired leadership and tolerable monophonic sound". Worth a sample now and again but can be pretty much left on the shelf. We all know that Decca didn't even want to release the thing but did so as a gesture to get Flagstad to sign on with the label.
It got quite a write-up on its last release. I listened to it, and though I didn't buy it (too much else) I was more impressed than this would suggest -- and I'm not a Flagstad fan at all. As I remember it, Fjelstad is by no means bad, in a brisk, fresh manner, and the cast would be welcome in most performances today. The orchestra is not brilliant, but no disgrace either.
Cheers,
Mike
Listen to it again - the Hagen and Gunther are hopeless - that's the only word I can come up with - both of them sound like they never sang these parts before and knew nothing about them. When you add that to totally nondescript voices you come up with two big zeroes in a Gotterdammerung performance. As for Fjeldstad its obvious there was very little rehearsal time - the combined orchestras heave and lurch along with many mistakes big and small. The Norns sound like a good sight read as do the Rhine daughters. We know what to expect and some of it is quite appreciable from the two leads - at one point Decca released a 2 LP abridgment with just Flagstads part. The set held a place in the Lp lists until the stereo Solti set which was better in every respect and relegated the 56 set to sampler status - which is where it belongs
Well, it's a while since I heard it -- some decades, I suppose -- but I remember expecting something awful, after Culshaw's criticism of it, and finding it not nearly so bad. Naturally I wouldn't compare it with the Solti -- few versions could stand that! But there's an awful lot else around now that really is beyond mediocre, and I feel the Fjelstad was better than recordings like Weimar's. I will certainly check that impression, though, when I can.

Cheers,

Mike
m***@gmail.com
2018-04-27 22:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Scott Rohan
The Australian label Eloquence, which has come up with some superb re-release stuff from the Universal catalogue, announces some interesting release for later this year, including the Flagstad Gotterdammerung with Fjeldstad -- not brilliant (and cut) but interesting, and likely to be better remastered than other re-releases -- and the Goodall Tristan.
Cheers,
Mike
Are Eloquence releases remastered in any way - I never see any kind of remastering info on them
Mike Scott Rohan
2018-04-28 14:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Are Eloquence releases remastered in any way - I never see any kind of remastering info on them
On many discs they credit a remastering engineer. They don't seem to provide actual technical details, which I think is probably wise of them.

Cheers,

Mike
Loading...